Where Is The Line Ideation Vs Serious

[shimmerz]

A recent posting has affected me for the second day now. I am certain I have missed it, but I promise I did go looking for the rules on such and can't find anything.

Can you please post something in this part of the forum that speaks to what ideation is as opposed to active planning/and then final 'see ya's'? Nightmares last night. Lots of them. I can't imagine I am the only one.

Also, if someone goes over the line, is it possible to remove the posts that the user puts up that shows absolute intention? I am sorry, this may seem cold and I don't mean to be but this particular posting has shaken me to the core.

I am not certain if this is help desk stuff or if others need to weigh in on it so I posted it here.

 

[Friday]

I've seen exactly that happen a few times, @shimmerz. If I'm one of the people who reported the post a flag in my inbox will sometimes pop up saying the recent report has been handled. Handled has varied. Sometimes a person is temp banned, sometimes they aren't. Sometimes content is removed, sometimes if isn't. Regardless, "report" lets staff figure out if a post is over the line & how to best handle it.

<rueful> I've had off days and made incorrect reports ... And I have yet to burst into a ball of flame ;) Nor get banned for gross stupidity & wasting staff time. :facepalm: So I'll keep reporting things I want a 2nd pair of eyes on. In no small part, because the best thing that can happen is that I'm wrong. If I'm having an off day and don't really realize it? Awesome! Something I can actually do something about.

LOL... I really don't report things all that often. Staff has just said Report / Report / Report / Report / Report / Report so often that at some point I decided to take them at their word. So when in doubt? It's nice to have an action to take!

 

[joeylittle]

Discerning ideation vs. intent is sometimes really easy, and sometimes a little more nuanced.

When someone states intent, they will most often include timing, location, and method. These things might appear to be opportunistic, rather than planned - but they can still be construed as intent. The author of one of the more popular suicide evaluation methods says that ideation is often one crisis away from intent, and intent is one impulse away from attempt. If I were to find myself at a hotel with a balcony, even if I had never talked about jumping as a method before, if I stated 'I will jump off this balcony as soon as I finish writing my goodbye letter', I would be stating intent.

On the other hand, if I stated that I wanted to jump off the balcony and end it all, that would slant much more towards ideation. Without any more information than that, what we have is a person in pain who wants their pain to stop and is identifying a possible method, but has no timing or detail to their plan. It doesn't mean they aren't in crisis and shouldn't be talked to and watched, but lack of detail usually indicates ideation. I say 'usually', because in a full psych evaluation, it's common for people to minimize their planning, and they need to be drawn out in conversation.

Additionally, there's a difference between 'want' and 'will', when determining whether it is intent or ideation. 'I want to' is generally ideation; 'I will', or 'I'm going to' is more likely to be intent.

Context is the variable. Someone speaking or writing in a very heightened state can either be in more danger or safer, depending on whether they are using thoughts of death to vent their pain or whether they are in a panic without much control over what they are saying/writing/doing. The line between blowing off steam and exploding is a fine one.

Any threat of suicide is assumed to be intent - this is because the listener is immediately tied into the situation, and if the listener/reader does not somehow give the suicidal person what they want, they (the suicidal person) will potentially follow through. People who threaten suicide are actually statistically not as likely to attempt - but that is an outcome that requires intervention, it is not likely to be achieved on its own.

Sometimes people are just careless with their language, and it makes sense to ask them very directly if they are planning to do something or thinking about doing something. Often, when this is pointed out, they will self-acknowledge that they don't have intent. This is a pretty typical early-intervention tool, and I know I've asked it of people before (on the board and elsewhere).

 

[joeylittle]

Also, if someone goes over the line, is it possible to remove the posts that the user puts up that shows absolute intention? I am sorry, this may seem cold and I don't mean to be but this particular posting has shaken me to the core.

We often do remove posts that do this (and that's what happened in the thread you are referring to) - but when those inflammatory posts are then quoted by another member, that's a separate thing to consider in re: deletion, because it will potentially deconstruct the meaning of the quoting member's post. I think, in this case, the response you offered to the member in question was very valid, and is worth preserving. Also, those statements were not demonstrative of absolute intent. They were clear about leaving, but only implying suicidal intention, and therefore not really absolute. It is a good example of threat, and why threat is really upsetting and also actionable, according to the rules of the board.

I understand how rattling this sort of thing can be. As much as I can, I'd encourage you to turn your mind away from that content, don't return to the thread, and know that none of us is responsible for any members' safety. We can't be. We aren't always safe ourselves, and we don't have the training or the resources to really do crisis intervention.

I'm sorry you've been shaken, @shimmerz - I really do understand, and hope this dialogue is helpful.

 

[Neverthesame]

I know what is really bothering me most in regards to the post in question. Is the "innuendo" whether real or perceived. I spent most of last night, reading this person's prior postings.

While I (going to be honest here) found the member in question to be rather abrasive, I very much got the sense that it stemmed from the experiences a person who is in a great deal of pain, I don't think it is inappropriate to go so far as to say they are desperately unhappy. But it also quite clear from what I read that they also were capable of giving alot of care and kindness.

The thread in question is one I had been reading from the beginning, I just did not add my input too. It was quite clear that this particular member has not been doing well as of late, then all of a sudden they "up and leave". It put quite a few red flags up for me immediately, due to the seeming lack of prior conflict with anyone else, (I realize it could still be the case, as not every communication here is public). No specific reason given, just a goodbye then *poof gone. In a thread dedicated to the rumination of suicidal thoughts.

People who threaten suicide are actually statistically not as likely to attempt

This is very true, though this is what I meant by "innuendo". Had I not read the thread, I would likely not have made the assumption that I did, one which I truly hope is in error.

The thing I find myself pondering most about this whole situation is, why does something like this bother me (and other's clearly) so greatly? This had nothing what so ever to do with me, far as I can tell I never spoke with this person, I don't know what they look like, sound like, anything. Just words on a page.

Is what it is.

I hope everyone is doing alright.

know that none of us is responsible for any members' safety. We can't be.

I for one will be repeating this in my head like a mantra for a bit. As it is absolutely true.

 

[shimmerz]

I think, in this case, the response you offered to the member in question was very valid, and is worth preserving.

Yes, thank you. I wondered whether I did the right thing quoting it or not and wondered if I should ask you to remove it. I appreciate this take on it JL.

 

[sun seeker]

I just reported a post because it went over the line from talking about what the person would like to do, to saying they have decided to do it and stating a method that they go on to say they would not be likely to survive. Other parts of the post suggest real desperation that they need help with, but that part worried me. I don't think I've reported a post before, but this one was disturbing. Maybe the poster is just overwraught and was impulsive about expressing themselves. I hope so.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

For my own good I have learned not to look at those kinds of posts because they are so distressing. A long time ago I got into a discussion with one of them and I found it so draining and upsetting to me.So I made the choice shortly after that not to read those posts again for my own peace of mind.