News Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism

[garden]

@RussH i think I understand what you're saying. You feel the dialogue can be skewed to mean that only white people can be racist due to their positions in society (according to Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson). This is simply not true, and they pretty much perpetuate racism by speaking that sort of nonsense. Those two people are not speaking for all POC, nor do all POC agree with anything that comes from their mouths.

Racism is a system of beliefs that inform people's choices and behaviors, which means it manifests itself in HUMAN behaviors. It's a human issue. Humans behaving badly towards one another over things that they have no control over, which is what makes it so sad and stupid.

You have no control over the fact that you were born white, yet you have to deal with comments and assumptions made about your personal beliefs by people who are judging that you must feel a certain way because you're white. It's sickening. Happens to my husband all the time. A newer co worker of his decides to crack racist jokes on cinco de mayo. His co worker assumed that he would enjoy these comments and he waited for my husband to engage, but was shot down and was quite confused by it. He assumed my husband was racist because he's a southern white male, and this really bothers my husband, that people assume to know what his beliefs are based on the color of his skin.

I like to think about what @Anarchy said about division being a tool or something for the state...

 

[garden]

@Simply Simon that video illustrates how POC are sometimes perceived. I'm not black, but I have an appearance that has been perceived as black or middle eastern (I'm neither) and I can tell you it can be really scary how people treat you when they think you're black or middle eastern. When I'm perceived as Asian it's a whole other kind of assumption...like in college people were disappointed when they realized I wasn't going to be much help to them in calculus or physics. They automatically assumed I was good at that stuff. The assumptions that people have about me When they know I'm Asian are usually harmless and have little bearing on my actual character. The characterization is very derogatory when I'm perceived as black or middle eastern.

Do you have any clips about how perceptions are formed and how they can be influenced and changed for the better?

 

[Kintsugi]

@Lewa

My father is a Russian Jew. He is olive complected. He gets a very nice tan, and when he does, he could maybe sorta look "middle eastern."

Boarding a plane to Florida, my punk-ass brother walked through. I walked through, with a pipe covered in marijuana resin and a Leatherman tool with like seven different knives in my carry-on (I didn't know the Leatherman was there). My father? The CEO? He got patted down, all his shit searched. I couldn't believe it.

Also, so glad you asked. The TED Talk I linked to by Verna Myers does a good job of addressing ways to change our attitudes (by acknowledging your biases, getting to know them, understanding them, etc.).

This deals with an aesthetically hidden bias, but it's a good one. Act I, "Do Ask, Do Tell" in This American Life's "The Incredible Rarity of Changing Your Mind."
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/rad...5/the-incredible-rarity-of-changing-your-mind

Act III, "Union Halls." Many people don't want to talk about it, but they don't want to vote for Obama because he's black. These are conversations between Union men about race and voting in This American Life's "Ground Game" episode in 2008.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/367/ground-game

The TED Talk I call Whose Issue is It, Anyway? A talk about whose problem violence against women is. Good talk for seeking root issues in bias. I think the same can apply to this discussion.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_violence_against_women_it_s_a_men_s_issue?language=en

Mellody Hobson says we need to stop pretending to be color blind and instead to be color brave:

Challenging the whiteness of public radio (Simon's title would be... I Heart Code Switching):
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...460/challenging-the-whiteness-of-public-radio

While we're on the subject of voices in public radio (and whose voice makes the cut), here's This American Life talking about a strange new bias against (mostly white) young women in Act II, "Freedom Fries."
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/rad...-have-anything-nice-to-say-say-it-in-all-caps

Musings on the School to Prison Pipeline... and how educators are addressing this. All acts are relevant. This American Life: Is This Working?

Act I, about the school-to-prison pipeline, as illustrated by one mother's journey to understand why she was a bad kid, and her kids are bad kids, but then--wait a minute, your kid did what?

Act II, charter schools. I think charter schools are a seriously contentious issue, but this is an interesting take on the pro-charter side of things, I think.

Act III, "The Talking Cure" (lovely little wink to us in the PTSD community via referencing The Resting Cure). How one school deals with conflict. And then, real life strikes back.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/538/is-this-working

Aaaand... that's all... for now.

I think I need to start a petition to get myself on NPR. Apparently I know my shit?

ETA: I just realized I know a bunch of other shit that's relevant, but I'll let you all work your way through these. If you're still hungry, I'll start on dessert. ;)

 

[ms spock]

@RussH I think you are picking up on the differences that the intersection that class privilege makes as well which is a sophisticated nuance.

@RussH I haven't read the readings what you are talking about. If you look at the video provided by @Simply Simon you will see a Black woman who is very openly talking about her biases - even admitting that when there was turbulence that she hoped the female pilot could fly the plane - which she admits she never worries with a male pilot.

I think we are talking about different things @RussH. I know that even though I watched my friends being searched for appearing Black in public - I never was singled out the way that they were. I watched the police approach my Black fellow students quite aggressively for doing nothing other than walking down the street. When I was at an exclusive girls private school - the police where even called when those White girls did destructive and disruptive things. White skin privilege meant they didn't even have to speak to the police nevertheless get taken to a police station.

The last High School I went to an Aboriginal woman was raped with a broken bottle in broad daylight by uniformed police officers in front of the community, who never had to answer for their actions. That would never happen to a White woman. The police would never dare behave like that.

One of my friends lost both her father and her brother due to institutionalised racism.

We have the life expectancy gap in Australia where Indigenous people die much earlier than White people due to a lack of institutionalised resources like education, housing and for example like receiving adequate medical in the emergency department. Imagine taking your granddaughter to a hospital and you knowing she needs attention but her being basically being not treated and dying as a result or living with a permanent disability as a result of her skin colour.

There was a Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody in Australia that looked at the systemic racism that means that Indigenous people die in custody at a rate that is not known to White people.

White skin privilege does mean that the discussion of racism/ethnicity is different depending on where you are coming from - there is an interesting discussion there as well I think.

 

[ms spock]

@RussH i think I understand what you're saying. You feel the dialogue can be skewed to mean that only white people can be racist due to their positions in society (according to Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson). This is simply not true, and they pretty much perpetuate racism by speaking that sort of nonsense. Those two people are not speaking for all POC, nor do all POC agree with anything that comes from their mouths.

I am not interested in such a discussion because it is obviously untrue. Everyone can be racist no matter what the colour of their skin.

I am talking about White Skin Privilege @RussH and what comes from that.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I agree with @RussH

A discussion on "white privilege" and white privilege alone just seems to have one end.....to make white people feel guilty. I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and feel guilty for something I had no control over. I'm not stupid. I know how pervasive racism is in our culture. But, I don't see how pushing the white guilt factor is going to improve anything.

Is anyone here (in this thread) not white? (And please don't anyone start in with the "I'm 1/8th whatever stuff, because if you look white, you are treated as white, even though you may indeed have "not white" heritage that goes way back. That's just how it is.) How does white people talking about racism with each other truly improve the knowledge of racism in society? Its like a bunch of us who have never been to the moon talking about what life is like on the moon. Wouldn't it be more productive to talk to someone who has actually been there? Just sayin.

 

[RussH]

@Ms Spock I grew up in the deep south of the United States, in the state of Alabama, and trust me racism was very strong with both whites and blacks.
I grew up during the sixties and seventies when the Civil rights movement under Martian Luther King Jr was in full swing. So, having said that, I am well familiar with the relationship between races, or the lack thereof.

There is a great deal of social injustice that happens in this world, and I would not deny that at, and yes white privilege exist, but there is another aspect of this that has recently change that dynamic in this country.
Too often in this country when a person of color has something negative happen to them they automatically cry racism. Recent events in the country have really caused divisions in race, and there are no easy answer.

A young black man was killed by police in Ferguson Missouri, He had just robbed a store. A police officer attempted to arrest him. He attacked the police officer, and in fear of his life, the police officer shot and killed him.

Riots broke out in the city of Ferguson. , The black community accused the officer of murder, and began torching businesses in their neighborhood. This, in spite of the fact, that the public did not know any of the facts of the case. There was a rush to judgement against the police officer because he was white.
The story would eventually come out; eye witness accounts and forensic science both verified the police officer's account of what happened, and that it was a justified shooting, but the black community continue to decry racism.

Approximately one month later a black young man gunned down two New York City Police officers for no other reason that they were cops, and they were not black, but there has been no accusations of racism against him.

In this country a white man can be denied a job because he is white, and a person of color, or for that matter a female will be hired simply based on the fact that they are a minority or female. It is called affirmative action.

I firmly believe that a person should never be denied or awarded anything on the basis of the color or sex. I believe, as our Declaration of Independence states that "All men are created equal" men meaning human kind not gender. I abhor acts of racism and sexism, but I abhor those acts whether they are being done by a white male, or a person of color

Sorry I cannot watch Simon's video. My audio on my computer does not work, so I cannot listen to it.

 

[garden]

And this brings us back to the point, that despite the words "all men are created equal" history tells us that things have not gone that way at all, and it has resulted in many ills in our society. Reality is different from the ideals we Learn about. If those words were truly adhered to, then how could 'red lining' have ever existed. It's not about "all men are created equal" as much as it is acknowledging that those words are just words, and in reality they have not really been carried out... This is how we got here, To the current state of things...

 

[ms spock]

Hugs to you @RussH and thanks for your insights. You offer many interesting things to think about. I will think on them for a bit.

I think we are in a different ball park of talking about this stuff but that is okay. We are talking about different things. But of course we have lead very different lives and seen different things.

I firmly believe that a person should never be denied or awarded anything on the basis of the color or sex. I believe, as our Declaration of Independence states that "All men are created equal" men meaning human kind not gender.

This is where it gets hard. Because women didn't get the vote with "all men are created equal".

Those things that seem to be inclusive over everyone often are not - and thus my interest in White privilege and how that works in our state's institutions.

In Australia Indigenous people didn't get the vote until 1967 - and in some places cannot own land still to this day, which I only found about recently. Until 1972 a third of Indigenous Australian's were not allowed to leave the missions without a white man's signature on a piece of paper, and despite working all their adult lives - they were never allowed to have access to the money they earned it was kept 'safe' for them. So if my parents hadn't got the money that they earnt then I would not have the education and access to community resources that I do. I have friend's my age who had parents, like mine, who worked all their lives and they have missed out because of that systemic racism embedded within the state apparatus meant they were not person enough to receive the money that they literally earnt with their own hands.

I abhor acts of racism and sexism, but I abhor those acts whether they are being done by a white male, or a person of color

Me too. And I also abhor the institutions that embed that racism, sexism and classism. In Australia women earn 75 cents in the dollar for doing the same employment as men. It is a systemic situation.

But for me, to talk about individual acts of racism, is to miss the point of how that racism (and sexism and classism for that matter) is embedded within my country's institutions. White privilege means growing up unaware out this operates - and if you never got told then it is hard to work it out.

Sorry I cannot watch Simon's video. My audio on my computer does not work, so I cannot listen to it.

That is a shame because the woman on that video is talking about what you are talking about. She is trying to get us all to see our biases.

 

[Spekx]

Well feel free to read my introduction, but I have a hard time believing in "white privilege" because I've never experienced any "advantage" in my life. Apparently my silver spoon was turned sideways and shoved straight up my @ss. I've been in foster care since I was two, I was treated poorly and made fun of by my peers for "not having any parents". What I do have is PTSD and agoraphobia......is this all part of my "privilage"?

I've been pulled over and harassed by cops (for no reason). I don't have any money, and nobody alive in my family will be giving me any when they "pass away". I don't have any higher education because I cannot afford it.

So just to recap, I have nothing, and I have always had nothing......I will probably die with nothing.....where is my "privilege?"

One of my biggest problems with this whole thing, it seems to be in denial that poor under-privileged white people exist. I am one of them and nobody gives me help because apparently only "under-privileged minorities" exist. This crap actually pisses me off. The poor black kid who goes through something similar to me have all these "opportunities" available to them, but me I have no options. Do you think I can get a "poor, straight, white person scholarship" to get to college? Do you think I will be hired over a more experienced minority person because the company needs to hit their quota of enough "white males"?

Nope, if I was a female I could get a scholarship or perhaps that job.....if I was gay I could also, if I was a minority I could also.......but all I really get is doors slammed shut in my face. Poor, underprivileged, straight, white males apparently don't exist or don't need any help.

 

[RussH]

@Ms Spock You are so right about the how government institutions have forced racism in various countries. I did not realize that the aborigines were subjected to such prejudices by the government.

You are so right that our country, when the words of the Declaration were penned that women did not have the right to vote, and in our countries infancy we did not practice the very ideals we espoused. It is interesting to see the changes taking place. While it is true, in this country, that white privilege still exist, it does not exist to the extent it did even thirty years ago.
People of color, and even some whites (Irish) were denied many, if not all their rights. However as our country has grown,we have begun to recognize this truth that all men are created equal.
We are a very racially diverse country, and I am not sure if there is any race of people on this planet that is not represented in our country. Many of the various races have assimilated into the American culture, and embraced the lifestyle here. Others have maintained their own cultural uniqueness, and while they live here, they do not function as the typical American. And yet each culture has the opportunity, the right to work hard and be rewarded for there work. They have the opportunity to succeed in business and in life, and for me, it is a welcome change.


I truly hope the good people of Australia will begin to realize that the aborigines are Australian citizens, and should be afforded all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship.

 

[joeylittle]

So just to recap, I have nothing, and I have always had nothing......I will probably die with nothing.....where is my "privilege?"

White privilege isn't about what your advantages are - it's a theory that states that, no matter where you fall in the socio-economic strata, there is inherently a bias that works to the advantage of a white person and the disadvantage of a person of color.

One of my biggest problems with this whole thing, it seems to be in denial that poor under-privileged white people exist. I am one of them and nobody gives me help because apparently only "under-privileged minorities" exist. This crap actually pisses me off.

This is the way a lot of people feel. In America, the backlash from Affirmative Action laws is still very present, and there's still a big debate about it, and a lot of anger, on all sides.

I know that statistics don't ever address individual situations, and I'm not posting this statistic to inflame you - but in the bigger picture, it is relevant to include:

Compared to non-Hispanic whites, Hispanics are more than twice as likely to live in deep poverty, and blacks are almost three times more likely to live in deep poverty. In 2012, 12.7% of blacks (almost 5.1 million), 10.1% of Hispanics (almost 5.4 million), and 4.3% (8.4 million) of non-Hispanic whites were living in deep poverty. - from 2013 US census figures, Link Removed

Your perception - actually, more than that, your reality - is that as a white male in America, you are currently passed over again and again in favor of women and people of color. But I think it's hard to argue that the truth is, in many situations, you are still advantaged over a person of color or a woman.

In situations where the Federal Government is legislating and deciding? Maybe not. The goal there is that everyone will be considered equally, but it's a problematic goal because in order to get there, some groups have to be privileged at various times.

But in life, just daily things - you are likely to be afforded a different level of consideration than a person of color or a woman. It seems borne out repeatedly in situations involving law enforcement, hospitals, restaurants, banks, gas stations...

And when it's only going to be a meritocracy - as in, the best and most qualified person wins - it's hard to argue that you have less opportunity than anyone because of your skin or gender, it's more likely someone just beat you out. So, is the door getting shut in your face because you are white? a man? poor? or just not as qualified? Can you really know?

Nope, if I was a female I could get a scholarship or perhaps that job.....if I was gay I could also, if I was a minority I could also.......but all I really get is doors slammed shut in my face.

I'm gonna call bullshit on whether this is true for gay people in America. There are still states where it's criminal to be gay, and the equal rights laws aren't applying to that group uniformly. But yes - it's hard to know if you are in a true meritocracy or if there is a person of color or woman being preferred because of those facts of their identity. Someone is always going to lose. I'm sorry that it's happening to you. But in the thousands of years of dominance and supremacy exercised by white males simply by virtue of the fact that they were white and male - something has to happen to shift those scales if we are going to live in an equal society. And unfortunately, it's not shifting on its own yet without the benefit of legislation.