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- #49
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Suicide Feels Inevitable. Can Anyone Relate?
- Post starter NatBird
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- Post starter
- #50
@lostforgottensoul really appreciate you sharing this - the thought just floating up out of nowhere. That's exactly it!
Maybe it's just something I have to treat like any other thought - (when I can be aware enough!) they arise, they pass away and I don't need to go with it.
- Post starter
- #51
@missy meier sorry to hear that you've been feeling this way and about your cousin.
- Post starter
- #52
@sun seeker yes I'm also sensing it's a dissociated part. I get that it connects to feeling poweless/incompetent; the story that I'm unable to change my life, be effective. Suicide then seems like one way to be in control and effective - a kind-of--well at least I can do this. This isn't what I'm thinking at the time the thoughts arise. Just where I've got to since posting.
I did a bit of work on the competence stuff with T today. Will definitely do some dialoguing. Thanks for the suggestion.
Gs172003
Diamond Member
Thank you. He was young. 26. He was so close to all of us. He lived with me and my kids for six months before he went into the air force. I couldn't look at him at the funeral. I couldn't handle it.
- Post starter
- #54
Thanks for introducing the term 'passive ideation'.
You mention that people aren't usually hospitalized for this. What about those who have regular 'passive ideation' that leads to self destructive behavior eg not taking insulin if diabetic, which can lead to hospitalisation and death.
I'm not trying to be a smartass with this example. It's just that I feel the passive ideation is a slow leak of poison in my system. No, I haven't gone off to kill myself. (Thank God we don't have easy access to guns in the UK) But I'm becoming aware that the engine of the ideation generally drives me towards behaviors that are suicidal, albeit a different kind.
Is being suicidal a spectrum? It certainly feels that way to me.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and anyone elses thoughts on this.
- Post starter
- #55
That is sad. Once again I'm sorry. I hope you can be well supported through your grieving.
I guess this has changed your thinking about suicide?
Gs172003
Diamond Member
It's the biggest reason I haven't done it. I've seen the aftermath.
I tried to commit suicide when I was 14. When I was 9, I had been counting the years until I could escape my family. I moved back and forth between my parents once or twice a year. It was one frying pan to another. There is something about the teenage years that makes one consider tomorrow as very far away. So, when I was 14, I could not imagine another four years of life as I knew it. I took a lot of sleeping pills. I lived. I went to a group home for six months. I learned some therapeutic ways to handle myself. There were a few times I thought about it in the next two decades. Not seriously, though. Until the despair that grew for months took hold, which was due to domestic violence, and my inability to make life better or to leave. It is something I must struggle against now. For me, the PTSD causes uncontrollable emotions and physical reactions. On good days, my emotions are balanced. Not too happy or upset. Little things don't bother me. On bad days, anything "going wrong" can make me wish I was dead. Overwhelm me. I used to like the disassociation, I liked feeling nothing. Unfortunately, emotions become dramatic when disassociation fades. These are the times when I struggle through the anger and sadness, and try to recover the will to live, and to live well.
I hope that you find your will to live, and live well. I hope that you find your way to ease your bad days. I think you will because you have tried to help yourself by talking to people here.
Oh yeah, the voices. I get this thing that happens with noises. There is a term that I can't remember. Sometimes, I hear everything at a higher volume, and sometimes I will hear everything like we are all under water. When this sound distortion occurs, I am very close to a panic attack.
For at over a year, there was a yelling/screaming constantly in the back of my mind. I could not think or function through this background noise. When my ex went to jail, and I thought my nightmare over, this yelling/screaming faded over six months. When the ex returned, the yell/scream returned, louder. It was crazy making. Made me want to pull out my hair, scream louder, bang my head against something to make it stop. Plus I had this jerk constantly deriding me and yelling at me for doing things like taking a shower. That is part of why I liked the disassociation, the yelling became softer, and I could think. The yelling/screaming was present in my dreams, as well. The "voice" was my own, btw. Like all the rage and sadness turned into one long mental scream. This also returns during periods of stress.
Thank you for you condolences.
I hope today goes well for you.
joeylittle
Sponsor
In the US (and it's probably the same as in the UK), what you describe is the major flaw in the system, that creates a crack for people to slip through. The person you describe would probably not be given help for the suicidal ideation, if they went to the hospital for it. They would be told to go into therapy. They might, or might not. They could end up back at the hospital 10 more times, or more, each time having ideation, but not getting accelerated through a system and connected with the right kind of psychiatric/psychological help.
They could end up in hospital after having a major episode with their diabetes, and that might bring things more to the foreground, but they still might not get help - unless they were willing and able to start pushing for it. And even then...maybe not.
Very much so.
It's very common to have thoughts about suicide - even for people with no mental health issues, who are having any kind of existential crisis in their lives. For these people, the thoughts don't seem remotely actionable - they are on one end of the ideation spectrum, just barely. But then, there can be a person for whom the thoughts repeat, and while they still never seem actionable, they may start to become more possible. Others, have crises in their lives and out of nowhere, think - 'I could kill myself and this would go away' - and they might grab onto it and ruminate about it, or it might disappear very quickly - but they never think 'of course, I'd never do that'. They have the thought, and they don't consciously dismiss it. That's further along on the spectrum. And then, there are people who have combinations of the intentional thoughts, the ones that just pop up, and what I'll call the 'logical consideration'-type thoughts, where one looks at suicide as a legitimate option for relief.
If you are having these thoughts persistently - say, some or most of the time within the last few weeks - you are experiencing chronic passive ideation. That's how a doctor would describe it.
But chronic passive ideation in and of itself is not a reason for involuntary hospitalization - even though it's really not that many steps away from rising in intensity and shifting to an active state.
The upper levels of chronic ideation will include a more articulated method, one that is both practical and achievable by the individual; access to the method; other kinds of behaviors around ordering affairs (these can be subtle and still be dangerous). When someone has had one attempt already, their risk is deemed higher. When the method is violent or irreversible (guns are the biggest example here, there are others as well), the person will be at a higher risk - even though their ideation may appear to be more under control.
Exposure to recent suicide, either in the media or in one's personal circle, will also increase risk.
There are really a large number of factors that go into an evaluation. An incredibly smart and experienced crisis worker would probably pick up on the problem a diabetic might be having (to go back to your original example), and would recognize that they have access to an effective method, and would be able to tease out in an interview how at-risk the individual really was.
But, they aren't all that good. In the US, crisis practicum isn't even a requirement for graduation with a masters in either social work or psychology. It's one of a few options, but not mandatory. It should be. I'm not sure in the UK, whether it is or not.
All this is why I'm personally a big advocate for people who live with chronic ideation to educate themselves about how it is evaluated by the medical profession. Sometimes, we know ourselves better than they will be able to tease out in a 30 minute interview. And at those times, it's helpful to know how to talk to them in their language.
But, one horrible thing about suicidality is that we may think we know what's up with ourselves - but we might be further down the rabbit hole than we realize; especially if one hasn't attempted before. For people who live with these thoughts for years, there can be a comfortability factor in how we work with them. Ideas like, 'I've had these thoughts all my life, but my impulse control is good, I'd never lose control and act impulsively'. That's certainly how I described myself right up until my brain broke and I ended up attempting. When I look back, I can see that I wasn't controlling the suicidal thoughts the way I imagined I was. But at the time, it was just a slightly more intense version of business as usual, in my mind.
That's why it's usually good to start talking about it and looking for support before things are increasing in intensity; trying to get a cognitive intervention in place while you've still got one foot firmly planted on the side of 'I do not want to die".
But - to go back to your original question - there's a terrible gap in the system, that does not address people who are chronic and would benefit from early intervention. Their problems can go ignored/unseen/untreated for far too long.
In many ways, the system relies on the person engaging in a passive attempt - a 'suicidal gesture' - which will then trigger a more structured kind of therapeutic support. Unfortunately, those attempts can also succeed.
- Post starter
- #59
@joeylittle @AHerShyKiss thanks for the responses/wishes. Much appreciated. Slow taking things in right now but will write more when I can.
Thank you @NatBird & @sun seeker. (PS And @sun seeker , how nice!, not many would think to light a candle for me. :) :notworthy: :hug: )
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