The Double Bind - Part Ii

[The Albatross]

I guess my brain seized up with the suggestion that "when you meet a person...". That would be a one for one and not in line with what is being discussed here unless the 5 in the video are met.

 

[shimmerz]

no contact unless or until something changes because my familial role was unsustainable and frankly disruptive to me and my own well being.

No, this is really helpful Alba, and I thank you for this. I think this is a double bind I am putting myself into and feeds back into the 'do better do better' part of it all.

Unsustainable is a really great word for me right now - one that I never even considered (as I don't give myself the option of limits). Wrong thinking for sure.

Much appreciated.

internal driver/perception there are not more that one purveyors in the scenario.

There is a definite external issue that I am caught in right now. Not an in my head thing. However, as you say I do have choices. I am no longer a child. It just becomes difficult as very young children are involved and will be affected.

there are not more that one purveyors in the scenario.

Yes, this is a very important component of a true double bind. And there are apparently different degrees of double binds as well, if one were to watch the Robert Diltz video on youtube re double binds. This stuff can get really intense.

 

[shimmerz]

Sorry, Alba, didn't see your 'do not tag me' until after I had posted. My apologies for having missed that.

 

[The Albatross]

I am okay but do need to break. Thanks.

 

[scout86]

I started to answer your last post, without tagging you, (Alby) but want to address the 'meeting a person' thing. It IS in line with what I was asking about concerning how what you learned as a child affects how you deal with people now. It's typically been my tendency to assume that what I grew up with is the way the world works. Fortunately, that wasn't an accurate assumption. So, when I meet someone NOW, I think I need to begin by sorting them into "reasonably safe" or "probably not safe" as a starting point. (To be reassessed on an ongoing basis.)

If I meet someone on the street who wants to create double bind type situations, I put them in the "probably not safe category". Now, based on what I've learned since graduating from high school and moving out on my own, I believe the playing that kind of game is the sign of a "bad person".

I'm not going to tag the Albatross, but I'm going to try to answer her question.

First, I don't really have enough information about her relationship with her mother to be sure I'm reading this right.

1. 2 or more people= her & her mother
2. Ongoing? I have no way to know for sure, but it's her mother, after all......
3 & 4. Not totally sure about this either, because I don't know the circumstances. With my mother, there was the fact that it was always painful to be around her but I was guilted for not being around. With and added measure of martyrdom from her for all she'd 'put up with' etc. So there was the "A good daughter would to X" thing, combined with the price to be paid for doing it. I'm suspecting Alby's situation is similar. (A guess though.)
5. Well, it's her mother.......

 

[shimmerz]

When you meet a person who wants to play those kind of games, you notice, recognize,

A person involved in a double bind would be someone that you cannot retract from for some reason or another. As a child it would be a parent or key caregiver (or a sexual abuser perhaps that has you convinced that someone will get hurt or killed if you tell/don't comply).

As an adult it may be a spouse who says he will harm your children or who you know will abuse your children if you were to leave (a situation that I took a gamble on and lost for myself/the children/the grandchildren terribly).

Or a boss that has you working beyond capacity for fear of losing your job and telling you that your future is ruined if you don't shore up because they will not give you a good reference.

Those are the traps of a double bind. What keeps you there. The double binds (conflicts of do this or else and don't do this or else) is the way that one is caught being played with as a cat would play with a mouse.

I mean, who wants to be played with in that way. Any rational person would walk away right? So there must be a trap - something that the scapegoat will lose that will destablilize them in some way. Not sure if that helps a ton or not.

This is the nature of the double bind. It is meant to be confusing.... so don't be concerned if it is difficult to figure out.

 

[The Albatross]

Okay so found this right off the cuff with something Scout refers to and a third option that didn't occur to me straight away, "... a double bind message is a three way no-win situation that amounts to you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't and you're damned also if you notice that your damned either way"
Link: Crazy Making Communication - Taking Care of Yourself - Depression

 

[The Albatross]

Also found this on the topic of double bind (Buddhist tradition double bind situations are perceived as beneficial in the search for enlightenment): "In Zen Buddhist writing the double bind is a path to enlightenment. Koans (unsolvable problems given to a student by a master) such as "what was your original face before you were born" were to be meditated on until the student presented an appropriate answer. As there is no correct answer possible, the goal was for the student to become so frustrated in the quest that the ego relinquishes its hold and the student realizes enlightenment. Koans, according to Zen teaching, lead to seeing through the false mind of duality.

The goal for those interesting in viewing double binds in a more advantageous way is to first recognize the role of perception in perceiving the double bind. Then an evaluation of whether this situation is actually a double bind would follow. Is it possible you are sensitive to similar situations, but this isn't a double bind? Even if the situation is determined to be a double bind, it can be reframed through understanding that all situations are somewhat different. Another strategy is to be completely present in this situation, letting go of the past situation that resembles this one, and considering what your partner needs in this moment. The double bind is an opportunity for you to be completely present, to communicate more effectively, and possible to become enlightened."

Da link: Link Removed

Don't want to junk it up so bowing out today again.

 

[scout86]

Yes, yes, a thousand times "yes"! Also rotfl because, for some reason, it's funny to see that in print. @shimmerz you may not BE in a true double bind until you're invested in the relationship so you have something to lose, but there are plenty of people out there who use that communication technique as a tactic. All I'm saying there is they are good people to avoid. On the other hand, it might be smart to deal with different types of people in ways not based on dysfunctional childhood scripts.

 

[The Albatross]

For myself, it was the familial role I was assigned, I am not sure but thought so also for Shimmerz... I had to step back to try to see what scout was getting at. However personally, I would hesitate to apply it to "someone that I meet" for example.

Carry on... stepping back again cuz this is really significant for Shimmerz.

 

[scout86]

I think it IS really significant for @shimmerz. And that it's somewhat of an ongoing thing especially because of her kids and their relationship with their father and with her. I'm wondering a little if expectations, based on past experiences might not also color her interpretations of current relationships. In ways that could be either accurate and useful or not.

The thing about setting this tendency in people I meet..... maybe that's hypervigilence. I prefer to think of it as situational awareness. I'm sure I meet people from time to time who set things up that way. I avoid them. Really, even with my mother, once I figured it out, I avoided her too. I decided to adopt the role of "black sheep of the family" with enthusiasm but also did what I felt was "right" with equal enthusiasm, and completely confused and confounded everyone. In the end, MY way out of the double bind was to decide that, if it's a given that I won't get it "right", then I'm going to do what I damn well please, to hell with 'em if they can't take a joke.

 

[Ronin]

you're damned if you don't and you're damned also if you notice that your damned either way"

The description with the added 'and damned if you notice' made me chuckle.

Points for applicability and as usual when finding a tool, thanking who's introduced me to it, so thank you Alby.