Let's Do This Mental Health Language Thing Then

[shimmerz]

Go ahead.... let's get at it. Please, I need clarification. Rip me to pieces if it suits you. Obviously this needs to be spoken about.

Why is a proper Mental Health Language repertoire important to you and to this board in general?

Does proper mean strictly adhered to by the DSM? Another means?

If a Therapist was to tell you that you have a particular disorder or that a family member is acting as if (although not diagnosed as such) a particular disorder, do we argue with them? Are we restricted from sharing that information here?

What does this board expect of people when they speak about disorders?

 

[anonymous]

<note from Admin: this poster has been removed from the thread>

Someone once told me months ago to not interact with you because in their perception you seemed to have a diminished intellectual capacity. I'm just passing along what was said to me, nothing more, and do not claim it as my own thoughts.

If you cannot understand why language is so important, I honestly think you are your own worst enemy in healing.

Healthy communication is the key to quality relationships and functioning well in the world as a whole.

Healthy communication involves using language that has a known set of common meanings.

You cannot seem to grasp this concept.

I wonder if anything you've ever posted has been real given your propensity to change word definitions on a whim.

It detracts from your credibility.

And since many people support this delusional notion that it's ok to change word meanings yet at the same time whine about how the world out there doesn't understand them, I seriously doubt that many people here actually want to get better.

It's like shooting yourself in the foot and then playing the wounded victim who whines about not being able to walk!

Then again, it's a sign of zero foresight into how your actions today may effect things in the future.

 

[Deleted member 541]

I think you might need some :hug::hug:'s. So sending them if you'll accept!!!!

 

[Muted]

If I am understanding what you're asking on the first question, I think understanding Mental Health Language and definition is important to me because it helps to ensure better communication and understanding. More or less, being on the same page. This is my reasoning, but I cannot answer for the board.

According to google search a couple different meanings for proper is: 1. Real or genuine, 2. Appropriate , correct, right or accepted.

Also according to google search: Adhered could be attached, believed in, or represented truthfully.

I think the above two terms are similar, but adding strictly more describes the strength in which it's going to be adhered to.

Strictly is more rigid in how something is enforced.

I think if a therapist does that, it might be good to question their reasoning, especially if it is about someone they haven't met or who isn't their patient. I think it's vital to be comfortable enough with your therapist to ask questions. Also, to be able to think for yourself and not just believe what a therapist tells you.

I don't think we're restricted from sharing that information here, but it might be a good idea to check on that. I think if it is shared without identifying the person it would be ok, but it might be good to mention that it isn't a confirmed diagnosis. I know I'm probably guilty on that one, if it's against the rules.

I'm not sure what the board expects of people when they speak about disorders. Disorders are categorized by symptoms, but my I don't think we have to define who we are by a label. I think it can help understand what we're dealing with, but it doesn't make us who we are. ( in my opinion )

 

[anthony]

Go ahead.... let's get at it. Please, I need clarification. Rip me to pieces if it suits you.

Just remember that you set a bar here in this statement. You need to factor that when you get such responses now.

 

[shimmerz]

Someone once told me months ago to not interact with you because in their perception you seemed to have a diminished intellectual capacity. I'm just passing along what was said to me, nothing more, and do not claim it as my own thoughts.

Passive aggressive and hiding under Anonymous? If I knew you I would absolutely return the favour of assessing your character in kind, but you won't reveal yourself. And on top of that you are throwing other people under the bus and remain non committal as to whether you agree. Cowardly.

Now, stop attacking me and man up. Show your face or we have nothing further to say about this. I don't waste my time with people who hide in corners.

Oh, and by the way, I have not an ounce of concern as to whether you find me credible or not.

Now, man up or get lost.

Shimmerz

 

[shimmerz]

Just remember that you set a bar here in this statement. You need to factor that when you get such responses now.

Fair enough. Just letting you know that I was going to reply in kind.

 

[joeylittle]

It's a good topic.

Rip me to pieces if it suits you. Obviously this needs to be spoken about.

I'm curious where you get the 'obviously' from - I don't disagree that it's a conversation that comes up in various threads, but is it useful to ask why now?

Telling people to rip you to pieces if it suits them, kind of sets a rough tone for the thread. I hope that it doesn't continue in that vein. It's a personal issue - and it's super hard to not personalize it - so opinions will run high, and yeah, that gets messy. Messy's OK, though. Looking to start a flame war, not so much.

Why is a proper Mental Health Language repertoire important to you and to this board in general?

It's important to me that disorders be understood with the fullness of what is available to us. The DSM is a big part of that, as is the ICD. Those are not the only things that matter, but they are the source material that professionals are generally supposed to be working from. I personally believe that the language and ideas present in the DSM and ICD are relevant to any conversation about diagnosis. And even if one believes that they are flat out wrong - I think it's more productive to understand a different point of view in the context of those codified diagnostics.

Now, that's just me. The board in general, I could not speak to. Part of the stated intention of MyPTSD is to promote education of PTSD and the issues around it. I do think that it follows that we make use of available clinical information - but, it does not follow that all that information is even in agreement with itself. And science keeps pressing forward.

If a Therapist was to tell you that you have a particular disorder or that a family member is acting as if (although not diagnosed as such) a particular disorder, do we argue with them?

Well, I do, if it doesn't make sense to me. I also understand the distinction between acting as if and is diagnosed with. It's frustrating when people share stories of under qualified mental health professionals who start making shit up (basically), and that made-up shit leaves the client more in doubt than when they started. When people tell stories like that, I want to contribute by offering some more empirical information.

And, others will contribute by totally disagreeing with me (or whomever).

It's another stated purpose of the board that we value diversity of opinion. And this is one of the areas where it plays out.

Are we restricted from sharing that information here?

Gosh no. There's no such restriction on that. Again, anyone is free to agree, disagree, ask questions, etc - it all depends on the thrust of the post.

What does this board expect of people when they speak about disorders?

Nothing. The board hopes that the community will respond. How they respond...that's entirely up to them. So long as it is not breaking our (very simple) rules, then it stands. And when it comes to really heated stuff, the board (staff) looks for the difference between attacking the ideas and attacking the person, and helps push things back to the topic, if/when the OP needs help with that, or it's just going off the rails. Our interest is in free expression, diversity of voices, peer-to-peer dialogue and support (which sometimes comes in the form of challenge), and the advancement of education on PTSD.

 

[Keming]

Go ahead.... let's get at it. Please, I need clarification. Rip me to pieces if it suits you. Obvio...

A good topic. Worthy.

My doctor and I used to talk about pain. When I say "severe pain" I mean: my knees buckled, and I screamed, and I fell, and I sobbed with the agony of it. His 'pain' means 'kind of sore.' He's incapable of understanding my meaning. We don't speak the same language. He's useless to me. I'm changing doctors.

Language matters. Language is how we shape our thoughts, structure experiences. Having too-few words diminishes our abilities. Having the meaning, however dark or uncomfortable, washed out of words, trivializes the experience and limits our ability to communicate the fullness of the experience. The pain is still real, but the word is taken away. How then, can one process it? Talk about it? How does a person talk about rape if their mother said that was a bad word, and one has to use euphemisms? How could my therapist as me about dissociation if we aren't using the same meaning?

It would be pretty [-----] if our words became useless.

 

[shimmerz]

When I say "severe pain" I mean: my knees buckled, and I screamed, and I fell, and I sobbed with the agony of it. His 'pain' means 'kind of sore.' He's incapable of understanding my meaning. We don't speak the same language. He's useless to me. I'm changing doctors.

Yes, and words many times are based upon one's experiences. When one's experience goes beyond the capacity of another's experiences for that word, unless that person can get one's head around the fact that perhaps these things CAN and DO happen, and explore from there, then trying to get to answers, express what one is attempting to express becomes a moot point.

I'm curious where you get the 'obviously' from -

Because this Stockholm Syndrome thing has come up more than once with me. The posting yesterday brought it up yet again. I get it, some people can't let sleeping dogs lie. I have opinions on Stockholm Syndrome that don't mesh with Anons. I am not certain how that got tangled up AGAIN, in a thread that had nothing to do with Stockholm Syndrome.

Why is a proper Mental Health Language repertoire important to you and to this board in general?

Due to an issue with the DSM IV, I was denied proper treatment, over and over and over again. Catatonia did not exist, they said, without Schizophrenia. I was violently abused by health care workers, I was denied proper medication, I was called names I don't want to repeat. And what happened in the DSMV? They recognized (ooops) that Catatonia CAN exist without Schizophrenia. 8 years of hell because nobody would read between the lines of the DSM ICD and compare that withwhat my ACTUAL experience was.

That taught me something. Just because the DSM says so (or says it isn't so), doesn't mean it is so. So I fought literally, for my life to get people to 'get' that something horrible was happening to me and it wasn't good enough that they tell me because it wasn't in a book that it couldn't exist.

Telling people to rip you to pieces if it suits them, kind of sets a rough tone for the thread.

I actually put that in there because there have been repeated issues with this fighting about words for me from certain members. I needed to see how deep it goes. And that I did. Anthony, it is actually NOT my fault that Anon chose the words they did to express their contempt for me. I appreciate the lesson in how to take responsibility for another's attitude though. I did that for a ton of years, and I am not going to do it anymore. Anon chose the words they did. That is on them. Not me.

Looking to start a flame war, not so much.

The war actually started months ago with that Stockholm Syndrome thread. I have no interest in having a post that is months old coming back to haunt me over and over again. Enough.

It's important to me that disorders be understood with the fullness of what is available to us.

I agree with this. Unless current psychology is not reflecting the reality of situations. I was diagnosed 10 years ago with DDNOS. That was fine. Not otherwise specified is a good way of saying that something could include lots of things. Manuals are great as a guide, but we are people, and each of us unique. I can't help but feel that being validated by a manual just isn't enough. Especially a manual that keeps getting revised.

If it wasn't for the works of Pete Walker, whom I have known about for a decade, who first put out there theories and validating information for my catatonia.... I don't know what I would have done. Because I was being invalidated and humiliated over and over again by front line doctors. So I believe that as much as the DSM is very helpful in so many ways, up and coming research is helpful to toss around as well. Looking at things that make sense against the sufferer's experience makes sense.

And even if one believes that they are flat out wrong - I think it's more productive to understand a different point of view in the context of those codified diagnostics.

Would you mind explaining this to me? I am not quite sure I understand. If you don't mind, can you package that around my experience with the Catatonia and the lack of a Schizophrenia diagnosis.

And, others will contribute by totally disagreeing with me (or whomever).

And does that disagreement need to become the gift that keeps giving? Or should it be more like I disagree and let's drop it?

Part of the stated intention of MyPTSD is to promote education of PTSD and the issues around it.

And let's face it, education, reworking a comfortable frame of reference, can be uncomfortable. But it is the reality of our mental health system. We learn stuff. We are supposed to be learning stuff. Telling people that their experiences, that don't fit neatly into their mental health world view does not make it wrong. Nor is it a reason to attack one's character. But so be it.

Well, I do, if it doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, you are right. I do too. And I also agree with them if something rings true. Or I research it, or ask on the board about it. And it is a process to see if it 'fits'. Which is why asking questions (even if on the wrong track) can be helpful.

that we value diversity of opinion.

That we VALUE diversity of opinion. And experiences.

 

[Friday]

((This ties in a lot with the Compare/Contrast we were talking about, earlier.))

Long Version

Metaphors & Similes have their place; usually used to set tone or engender better understanding of a subject that is outside the readers realm of experience.

American-English is particularly rife with metaphors & similies as we broke apart from English-English during Shakespeare's time, and our quasi-dialect continued the language use of the day. (just as Australian English has a wicked strong Victorian bent; age of reason / sense and directness above all else, coupled with bizarre euphemisms involving nouns. <cough>.) Philology aside, the point behind using metaphors and similes is to make things better understood.

The problem, for me, is when they stop doing that.

Sure, when I'm explaining PTSD to someone who doesn't have it, I'll use the parallel of the stomach flu. Or when I'm explaining why I don't view rape victims at fault, I'll use the example of bank robbery, and how it's impossible for a bank to be robbed without someone robbing it (doesn't matter how tempting a target the bank is, or how lax it's security, it still takes a bank robber to rob a bank, and it doesn't "not count" if the bank was practically begging to be robbed :rolleyes: ).

But PTSD isn't the stomach flu, and rape isn't a bank robbery. All parallels break down eventually. Some sooner than later.

Once we pass by speaking in metaphors and similes for absolute bare bones basic understanding, and are actually talking about the thing itself? Why is it important to be using exact -and shared- terms? Better understanding. Getting all loose with language actually muddies water, creates misunderstanding by claiming A is B and Up is Down. Sure, both are letters and directions, but if were actually trying to understand the REAL thing? We've moved past A&B are letters, and Up&Down are directions. The insistence that A = B and Up = Down? :banghead:

That man raped me! (Metaphor)
That man raped me! (Fact)

It matters in the above, if it's a metaphor, because no matter how many points of similarity having your change miscounted when buying a burger may share with rape? It's not actually rape. Not even in the same universe as rape. A violation? Sure. Broken trust? Absolutely. The list can go on and on and on about the number of points of similarity. It's still not rape. It's a metaphor. And absolutely no better & more detailed understanding of factual rape is going to be gathered by talking to people who've had their change miscounted. No matter how violated they feel, no matter how much their lives have been ruined (ruined!!!) by having their change miscounted, no matter how many other disorders they may have, nor the short & long term effects are going to help anyone understand rape. Crazy people? Sure. And maybe their brand of crazy may help better understand other brands of crazy. But Rape itself, and what victims of factual rape go through? No.

Language matters.

And the better our understanding of a thing? The more precision is called for. A 5yo may not need to know more than "Leg bone's connected to the hip bone!" Or that a leg is like a piston in a car engine... But I sure as hell hope my orthopedic surgeon has FAR more precise understanding!!! Not just the damn name of the "leg bone" (and we're talking more than distal, medial, proximal ends of the femur, but the actual anatomy and physiology of both the entire neuromusculoskeletal system and the very exact knowledge of what happens when those systems interact), but also doesn't come at my knee surgery with a blow torch, because, hey! Leg bones like a car engine! No!! It's not!!! (Well, yes, there are dozens of points of similarity... but NO!!! It not!!!) It's different!

One of the most frustrating things about Psycn is how much of a BABY science it is. We don't have shoulders of giants to stand upon here, and we're actually writing the book on PTSD. That makes what we're doing -you, me, everyone here, as well as experts groping to understand us better- super duper important. It's the equivilent to the Royal Society back in the (1700s? ...edit... 1660. Cha. 1660's science & engineering <low whistle> ) first separating out science as science. Was a lot of it wrong? Yep. A lot of the beginning of anything is wrong. The less wrong we can strive to be? The better. My $2

 

[Suzetig]

To be honest mental health language doesn't matter that much to me. I don't worry too much about formal diagnosis and do tend focus on my or others experience. However, I am in the U.K. and all my mental health treatment has been paid for privately because I refused to go down the line of diagnosis-treatment (meaning medication)-cure (or more likely ongoing treatment for ever) punted by the NHS. For others it becomes important because appropriate diagnosis gives access to health care or service provision.

So no, I don't think formal mental health language is the be all and end all and experience tells me that formal diagnosis can be a real hindrance for some people.

However, I do think if someone is going to use the language of mental health, it should be accurate. PTSD without a crit A trauma? No. Every selfish or manipulative or abusive behaviour = narcissism? No. The reason being that for me too many fairly normal reactions get pathologised, the wide range of human behaviour becomes a syndrome or disorder rather than being something of choice and therefore becomes something to accommodate or accept. Terming something a disorder too easily absolves others of responsibility for their behaviour or healing.

I do, for example, push back against people who have experienced a trauma, and who show signs of post traumatic stress, saying they have PTSD 3 days after the trauma - because those symptoms are a perfectly normal reaction to trauma and most likely will settle. It's very easy to look for confirmation that there's something "wrong" when one feels so bad, but there has to be room for us to be human, in all it's glory and god awfulness without it being termed disease or disorder.

I also think it's important people are largely on the same page so when someone says they're referring to having feelings for their abusive ex partner as Stockholm syndrome, I know that isn't technically what's happening. For me pathologising normal human emotion isn't helpful - it's much harder to accept that we have feelings that are messy, that don't make sense, are unwanted and uncomfortable but by pathologising those feelings we end up treating and supporting the wrong thing.

The desire for people to have a diagnosis or disorder to validate their feelings actually does the opposite. It puts them in a box where everyone with X feels Y, rather than giving space for the whole person to express their whole feeling.

So, maybe not PTSD but that doesn't mean someone doesn't feel bloody awful - diagnosis won't change that but calling it PTSD because someone wants to make sense of the feelings they have or have others understand how awful they feel isn't helpful to them or the wider community.