News Breaking apart white skin advantage (why is it so hard to talk about white skin advantage?)

[ms spock]

This thread is not for people who doubt White Skin Privilege or do not want to acknowledge it's existence. This thread is to collect information about White Skin Privilege and how to discuss how White Skin Privilege is noticeable in your day to day activities, or how you yourself challenge White Skin Privilege or resources that you have about deconstructing and breaking open White Skin Privilege. Any person who questions White Skin Privilege will be thread banned immediately as this is not the purpose of this thread, and you can start your own thread about whatever issues are on your mind. I spoke to @joeylittle quite awhile ago about restarting this thread around this particular in this part of the forum. So straight up I am going to thread ban anyone who derailed my last thread on White Skin Privilege.

This is the previous thread: Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism I am not at all interested in the discussions that derailed my last thread on this.

Why It's So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism
Posted: 04/30/2015 4:04 pm EDT Updated: 04/30/2015 4:59 pm EDT
Dr. Robin DiAngelo explains why white people implode when talking about race.
Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture. But mainstream sources -- schools, textbooks, media -- don't provide us with the multiple perspectives we need.
Why It's So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism | HuffPost

A resource suggested by @Simply Simon
Act Two. If You See Racism Say Racism. 22 MIN
557: Birds & Bees

Thanks to @Link Removed for
National SEED Project - White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Thanks to @joeylittle for
White Privilege Explained in One Simple Comic

With thanks to @Simply Simon
How to overcome our biases? Walk boldly toward them

I will add to this later on.

Unless you have read and watched these documents please do not contribute to this thread. I am not interested in continually going over the basics again and again and again.

 

[joeylittle]

Thanks, @Disco Dancing Queen. I've moved this thread into the news and politics area. When I suggested you start it in Diaries, we didn't have the member thread banning feature. Now, we do. So - with the addition of that tool and your very clear thread rules (as outlined above), I believe this thread can exist here successfully.

 

[ms spock]

In terms of my own exploration and teaching resources I have been looking around and searching for information. How can I explain this to my young people? How can I represent this in my own art and writing? The way I write here, on this forum, is not the way I write. I keep that separate. How can I productively engage in discussions that bring these elements to the fore? What can I contribute to the discussions?

At The Purchaser's Option - Rhiannon Giddens at Augusta Vocal Week 2016

and

Rhiannon Giddens - At The Purchaser's Option

I like the different versions for different reasons. Rhiannon Giddens writes lyrics which are evocative of the beauty and depth of Rumi, the pathos of Elizabeth Hodgson Skin Painting (Elizabeth Hodgson), and the clarity of Seamus Heaney, his personification of certain elements is what I am thinking of here. When I read and reflect on her lyric writing, there is SO much there.

So Elizabeth writes of being a member of the Stolen Generations, there is another writer who also wrote about this as well, Janaka Wiradjuri.

The experiences of White Skin Privilege are very different with a wide variety of nuances depending on the social, cultural and historical circumstances of your and other people's lived experiences.

 

[Fadeaway]

I have no intention of derailing the thread, so if you have an issue what I am about to post please talk to me about it before thread banning me. Also please read my post all the through before making a judgment call.

To answer the question of why it is so hard to talk to about white skin privilege, the approach is one of many reasons, but the one I have the most issue with is the word privilege. The word privilege is associated with status and wealth to most people. So when they hear the word privilege, They aren't thinking to themselves "yeah, it is easier to be white than black." they are thinking, "I wasn't born rich, why are you assuming I was born rich because I am white?" The choice in wording opened up the doors for controversy and created unnecessary defensiveness. White advantage is a much better word to use to bring change to peoples perceptions of where they stand.

Let's Get Rid of the Term 'White Privilege' | HuffPost

Why it's better to talk about "advantage" rather than "privilege" (essay) | Inside Higher Ed

I am not questioning the existence, only the word choice. I believe white advantage exists. I know it exists
I really believe that brainstorming ideas for a better approach is crucial. People aren't going to listen when they feel defensive, so what does get them to listen, what does get them thinking disadvantages of other that they might not experience?

Can we agree on that?

 

[ms spock]

Thanks @Fadeaway. I will do a closer reading of these articles over the weekend. Thanks for your contributions.

 

[Muttly]

This is a fly-by because my brain and focus aren't there. I've said for ages that I wish privilege wasn't the term. I fully grant white privilege is a thing and own up my benefiting from it. However, as @Fadeaway stated, I think it misleads many. I also don't fully like the term advantage (even though that's what it is) but have never come up with a better term. I've talked about "freedom" or some synonym being used because that's what it is. There is a really great documentary and when (if) I come up with the name I will share it here.

 

[ms spock]

I would love to read all about that @Muttly, and await information on the documentary eagerly.

I am open to the idea that the dialogue needs to shift to using other types of language, or paradigms to actually talking about White Advantage in other ways.

The parameters were certainly not set to exclude explorations of the way I have set up this thread @Fadeaway and @Muttly, and indeed I can see how shifting that could be quite useful. The reason for starting a thread like this on a forum like this is that there is so much social, cultural, emotional and intellectual capital and deep insight available from members - and I wish to learn more - extend my knowledge but understand in a deeper way. A dialogue around changing the language from privilege to advantage is most welcome indeed, and I would be sad to have missed out on an opportunity to go deeper and learn about the shifting language choices, and the reasons why language needs to change. Even if it ended in a yearning for the creation of new ways of expressing, thinking and describing advantage that would be most worthwhile indeed.

 

[Iamsensative]

Hi, I am as white as they come and yes white privelage

Sorry it wont let me edit my post. So I know its reality. People dont see because they never lived it and they want to truly believe that its not true. People live in their little bubble world and dont look outside themselves out if fear of letting that ugliness of life touch them. Will comment more later, just had to say this.

 

[scout86]

I was going to stay out of this, but others have already mentioned the same thing I was thinking.

One of my best friends, and a very wise man, used to tell me, "Sometimes you have to ask yourself 'What do you really want?' Do you want the shear joy of a really good fight? Or do you actually want to actually accomplish something? Because, usually, you can't get both things using the same approach."

So, I'm "white". (I sort of dislike that term because it implies that all WHITE people are alike and there are no significant regional or cultural differences, but I digress.) And, when I hear/read someone wanting a conversation that begins with "white privilege" I assume that the general direction the discussion is going to take is that I'm "white" therefore I'm wrong. Period, end of discussion. I'm racist because I'm white. I don't get it because I'm white. I can never not be a racist. No one who's not white can be a racist. There's a huge problem (and there IS), but I'M the sum total of the problem and there's nothing I can do about it except make myself available to be blamed. If I thought being available to be blamed would actually solve something, I'd be up for it. (I think.)

Since I feel that way about that use of the term, there's not much reason to show up for the conversation. BUT, @Disco Dancing Queen YOU are a person I deeply respect and, such as I know you online, I like you. So I'm sure your motives are good and I decided to read along. And I was kind of glad others brought this up.

My 2 cents? There IS a real issue here. I suspect it's especially difficult for white males, with no other challenges, to get what it's like to have people assume what you can and can't do, because of what "group" you belong to, because it never happens to them. They have no point of reference. Makes it harder to empathize.

Personally, I'm most interested in figuring out how we level the playing field, now and going forward. In my own life, getting hung up on who is to blame for what hasn't been very useful. I don't like that that is often the way this type of conversation goes. (That's maybe just me, BTW, not a reflection on the potential value of the topic.)

There's a lot for non-white people to be angry about. I can't see any particular reason for them to want to be reasonable, or to be anything other than angry. There's a really long history of not solving this, when it seems like it should be solvable. Promises have been made and broken, lies have been told, people have been used and abused because of something as minor as the color of their skin. It's horrible. I can totally understand giving up on anything resembling "actually accomplishing something" and going with "the shear joy of a really good fight". So, I don't criticize those who just want to bash white people. I just also don't want to engage in that kind of conversation.

So, @Disco Dancing Queen , what do YOU think? Because I'm sure you have some thoughts and I'd be interested to hear what it looks like from your point of view.

 

[ms spock]

I really wish my 15 year old self could have talked to you folks, because that would have been really useful for me to have someone to assist me in negotiating all these points. I came to understanding white skin advantage pretty late, I was 15. I had gotten class, in the way a young person can be in having worked out. My Mother (for all that she was pretty evil and abusive) did have some values, and one of those values is that some families may never be able to have a Birthday Party so when I was 8 it was important to invite everyone in the class. Both my Mother and my grandmother spoke to me about class, inclusion of everyone, not taking more than your share, and some other understandings about class/socio economic status that I won't go into here.

I am trying to think through a thoughtful response.

I am also not doing so well in myself right now, so I will wait until I settle a bit.

The thing is that I think that these are important conversations to have, we need to have them in an accessible way that includes more people, but I am over debating with people that will not acknowledge white skin advantage because it closes down the dialogues that are emerging here, which I think, in the long run, can be much more fruitful.

I grew up with a lot of lies, and such lies that I have to cut parts of myself off. I live in a culture that is based on a lot of lies, and the basis of Australian society was "terra nulius," which has been found by the highest court in the land, as a legal fiction.

So yes I do have thoughts @scout86 and I am thinking of how to cover the scope of what I am looking to learn.

So I live with a male partner who has incredible white skin advantage, class advantage, gender advantage, heterosexual advantage etc. The spaces in which I have grown up and lived in, as a bisexual women who has had relationships with both men and women are invisible to him. Even basic white skin advantage was not even a concept to him when we met. So I don't want to rip him apart or have huge conflict, or undermine him whilst he is so ill, but there has to be space for me, and my many from a wide spectrum of people in the communities to exist and be, and for him not to give great offence socially by acting on social presumptions or norms.

So one of the ways I opened dialogue with him was to say think about everything that your Father and Mother gave you from food to Birthday presents - how would your life look like now - if they hadn't been able to give you food, clothing, a birthday present, a private school etc etc, and from there I discussed the health of many peers, who are members of the Stolen Generations (there was report written and the act of the removal was deemed an act of genocide) and whose parents also suffered from "Stolen Wages" in fact millions and millons of dollars. So it was a door into having a practical understanding of what it is like to be amongst a certain Aboriginal nations in Australia. I didn't want a bloody good fight, I wanted to have a dialogue, and I wanted to build understanding without shaming or making someone feel terrible or ashamed.

So the ways I worked around this was to say so as your Mother died when you were just in double numbers you weren't taught socially how to interact with this community or that community. I needed this from him because I can't bring my friends who are testifying in the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses into Childhood Sexual Abuse in to this home - without being sure that he knew the history of the Stolen Wages, and Stolen Generations, as I have a certain relationship with particular nations of language groups that are important. I can't have a relationship with a person that is not aware of the basics. To his credit he did take what I said on, and said to me that he had been brought up to be racist, and that one of the great things about going out with me, was that he was learning so much about himself. I said of course you were brought up racist there is a societal benefit to that - we don't have to be honest about how our past condemns a lot of people in the present to inequitable positions. So I set him up for success, by talking social protocol and respect, and clearly and explicitly outlining what was okay and not okay. I told my friends that he was very shy. That his Mother died when he was young, and his Father was drunk for 5 years, and that possibly he could be on the spectrum. That later in his life he was learning about a different Australia. Now he was accepted by some of my friends as "a tall, awkward, odd fellow, with a good heart" and they worry for him that he is the last living member of his family, and who will look after him, and be connected to him, when his Father dies, and they gave me advice on how to proceed in certain areas with him, which was actually helpful. So it is very different when you are in contact with communities and they are your friends and family, rather than talking in the abstract. Still I feel they are important conversations to have. And I did it with love and also this is important for you to know, because if you take X position, you will have to educate other Australians about our shared history. This is a very important thing in some parts of my family.

So with sexism we had many discussions, and he still has a ways to go, but he recently read an autobiography of an astronault. He came and told me, he was amused about it, that the astronault was a sexist arsehole, and that the women astronaults put him straight, and he (the astronault) had to come to terms that he was a really sexist bloke. So he says to me "I was like that! I was a sexist XXX, but luckily I met you and I learnt better. And so on and so forth.

So I need ways to explain to my partner, and I don't want to fight with him, I want to share all that I have learnt in my life, and also having that unassumed privilege/advantage means you are cut off from a lot of people, and it can be a lonely life. In his social group from high school, only two have a relationship - him and another man, and all the rest are single, and you know why? Because they have no idea how lucky they are, and no women are going to put up with those types of opinions these days. So they have heaps of money and opportunities but no connections.

The other one is how to be with my students. I have some students from variety of backgrounds. So how to I share the vast and rich experiences that I have had in a way that is accessible to them? I have a young man who is a suicide waiting to happen, and I am most concerned so talking to him about white skin privilege isn't really useful to him, but saying to him, that he has suffered, and it has been hard when people dismiss his suffering and don't listen to him, and that I think it is important to know about how other people have suffered, so we don't do to others, what has been done to us. So a bloody good fight is not what is required here either. One thing to know when you are suffering, that others have suffered - well there is a small lessening of loneliness.

 

[ms spock]

I added a bit more to the above @scout86.

And there are five or six other areas @scout86 in which I would like to be able to have positive discussions with people, because they do listen to me, and my opinion is valued. A bloody good fight would actually alienate people, and you know the good rapport that I have there is something that I want to cultivate, and contribute to - at the same time, I need strategies to talk about white skin advantage.

When I was at university, in tutorials I would talk about my white skin privilege - as winning a genetic lottery, and that my racism, (of ignorance, whatever) as something I was working on. So people were more willing to share in tutorials their concerns and fears, if they have someone who says "Hey yeah I was taught a racist concept, and I had to revise my position because I didn't know." Some of the lecturers thanked me for my comments because it opened up a much deeper discussion.

I didn't mind in my last thread people coming in and saying "I don't believe in white skin advantage/privilege," because they didn't know and were asking questions, but when people came in and just started going about stuff that had been well and truly covered earlier in thread. They were trolling, and it was taking up the space of what the discussion was about or leading to - is how in my life can I work to address/acknowledge or do something positive and productive about my white advantage, and the colossal advantage of some of the communities that I am apart of, and how do I do something productive for my friends and their children which see a lot of them die much earlier than the average Australian, and when you lose people to preventable diseases and medical conditions because the can't access medical assistance or are not confident to go to a medical centre - then there are questions there to - how do I do something that is meaningful, and not patronising and condescending?

My partner was not aware of how different all the Aboriginal nations are across Australia, so I stuck the Aboriginal Language map up the kitchen, so we can refer to it as we have discussions. Other people come over from time to time and they ask my why it is there. And they say to me you are really passionate about this aren't you? And that they didn't know, they had no idea about Stolen Wages, Stolen Generations, the health and education gaps, and how they could see if their whole family had their wages stolen and "managed" by the government, that there could be a point when a person could give up trying. So this is a an outline of what I do, and you know with some people, I don't bother because all they want is a bloody good fight. I just be me, and really it just kind of happens.

 

[ms spock]

My focus as a teacher in the school was on representations of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, I brought in film, novels, poetry, short videos, short stories, dances, art works and representations of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in the media, social media, TV, news casts, online reporting, newspapers, historical documents, depending on what they students were into, what interested them most. And it was a good journey with them, as they realised a lot of things about our country and our history, and how, with some honesty, that we can move forward productively. So I didn't go for shaming or harassing or fighting with anyone, I just went for explorations and trying to work my way around whatever is masquerading as a reasonable assessment task. And young people are awesome, if you ask them for suggestions and solutions to problems, they generally always give you some type of gold, even if it is different questions to ask and explore.

And there are other areas I would like to discuss and get some guidance but I need to be less here and more outside doing grounding stuff today.

So does that make sense @scout86? I feel I am explaining it not to the depth that I want to.

And some people bring up my keyring, and my maps and my T-Shirt once, and I have my say, if they don't bring it up again, then I let it go. I just say it is important for me that the truth is discussed and explored. That my family didn't die in wars to defend democracy and a fair go, for only X group. And some people come back with more commentary and questions, and some never mention it again. That is fine too. We are all at different points of our journeys through life.

My persona in day to day life, is really chatty, joke making, inclusive, listening, active, occasionally a bit of a life of the party. I work at not being judgmental but of active listening (not so well on my dissociated days). So because I am so open about a lot of things, there is kind of a space for me there. Or I work on building/creating that space.

I don't do a lot - I do a little. If each one of us did a little, even just looking at our opinions, and how they were formed, that could create intergenerational social change.