News Gender identification - when to start the conversation

[Muttly]

ok, it seems there's several different takes about what the government may or may not be doing in this theoretically situation. I'm not going to get into that.

There is a bit of murkiness in the conversation hat's happening here because both gender roles and gender identity are being talked about. Gender roles are things like, "girls like pink" and they change about throughout time. Gender identity is the gender a person identifies as - male, female, nonbinary, etc. The two can overlap but aren't the same. A child who was identified as a boy at birth wearing pink is a distinctly different thing than a child, identified as boy at birth, who insists from an early age he is a girl.

A couple people have mentioned that children's identities haven't formed yet, so they can't know what gender they are. However, research has indicated children's gender identity forms at about the age of three. That's the premise that's been worked from decades now and is the standard for psychology and pediatrics.

Now, for the personal side if things. I started saying I was a boy at about three or four. I was very insistent. I tried to use the boys bathroom. We had to get in girls and boys lines at school and I would get in the boy line. I'd end up in tears because no one would believe me or take me seriously. This was 40 plus years ago and I don't know if anyone in my life even knew about transitioning and such. I was the poster child of the transgender child though. I was persistent throughout time and in spite of much pressure otherwise. I kept it up until about the 2nd grade, when I had finally been teased and scolded into silence. I took the tom-boy label because it was the only thing that was remotely close but I also hated it because a tom-boy was a girl who liked boy things and that isn't who I felt I was. If I was the same child today and had supportive parents, I might well have been set on a course for transition and it would have been wonderful for me. (I did end up transitioning as an adult because... I am a boy...errr... well.. man now :P )

 

[mumstheword]

I think the problem in the government enforcing binary gender identification. In truth there is a spectrum with a multitude of variance. I think just teaching respect and acceptance of all the uniqueness of each individuals identity; race, gender, sexuality, faith etc is preferable to reinforcing the idea that you have to pick a gender - male or female. Some people are clearly a beautiful both, in what ever permutation.

I have inner "black" people but my colour and racial identity on the outside is "white" but it's not trendy to talk about "racial/cultural identity fluidity. Why can't we just be loved and cared for for being whatever blend of being we identify with? -without an either/or binary choise that isn't a choise its an expectation by society. WE DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE, we can just be ourselves with no great sufferation, if love and acceptance is all we experience. What about that, Government?

Black/white male/female duality is black&white thinking and is part of the problem, it's oppressive and limiting thinking that doesnt reflect nature and reality.

Oppression and hegemonic agendas (that I am deeply distrustful and suspect of) are the problem here, for me and reinforcing a binary gender OR sexuality "choice" doesn't sound liberating to me it sounds like more government dictates and manipulation, divide and conquer policy, to me, but maybe I'm just a very deeply sceptical person when it comes to governance and interfering with allowing people to work out their own destinies without all this "agenda" hype and pc bandwagon craziness. As a wonderful Reggae artist once recorded "Love don't need no government."

 

[Deleted member 41765]

and that isn't possible age 5.

Disagree.

Talk to my 4 year old or 6 year old about "transitioning" and I'll kick your arse.

And this comment compromises exactly my point.

 

[Sideways]

@Muttly - I definitely take your point. But...

Teaching kids to accept their bodies warts and all is a real issue - we have pretty massive problems with kids developing eating disorders at one end of the spectrum and childhood obesity at the other, and turning the Love Your Body message into “Love your body but also spend some time considering what gender you identify as” - even I would find that message confusing.

For kids who are having individual struggles with their gender identity? Absolutely it’s going to be on parents to help their kid negotiate that. But teaching little kids that there’s this big issue called “Gender” that they need to be aware of? I don’t get it.

As for teaching tolerance? To me, tolerance is tolerance. And particularly with young children, the message is not to be tolerant of particular minorities. The message is just plain old ‘be tolerant’. Whatever you’re bullying that kid for? Whether it be hair colour, eye colour, poverty, race, gender, big feet...stop that, because tolerance of everbodies differences is really important. No matter what those differences are.

A kid that picks up a doll rather than a truck? Isn’t different. Isn’t necessarily making any kind of statement about their gender. Doesn’t require some kind of ‘special’ tolerance. Bullying is bullying, regardless of the motivation. Tolerance is tolerance, and the minute we pick out special groups requiring ‘special’ tolerance, we’re teaching kids that there’s something different about them that requires special tolerance. Which seems counterproductive to me.

To me, what’s kind of offensive in all this is the concept that by playing with dolls or dressing in pink, I was ever making any kind of statement about my gender. That’s pure stereotype. So, if a kid is being taught that they’re being ‘gender fluid’ by wearing particular clothes? We’re strengthening stereotypes rather than diminishing them.

 

[Deleted member 41765]

I have no idea why it’s the school’s job to ‘teach’ gender identity.

It is a schools job to teach tolerance and empathy.

Setting -mostly- aside my personal strongly held belief that "The more laws, the less justice" ...

To b...

What? Who are you even talking to?

 

[Deleted member 41765]

The fact that "the government" had entered this conversation at all is heartbreaking. We are or WERE talking about kids which is a topic that is clearly lacking in both research and unbiased exploration.

 

[mumstheword]

W

The fact that "the government" had entered this conversation at all is heartbreaking. We are or WERE...

Who and what are you referring to?
Ignorance is a pretty major problem across societ(ies) in general but I see genuine responses that are thoughtful here. So what is it, specifically, that you take objection to?
Personally, I feel I've done much more than average research on this area and my views are thought through. I am also a mother of multiple children and a good one, I'm told, so I'm wondering who it is you think is ignorant of children?

 

[Muttly]

@Ragdoll Circus I'm not sure if your whole reply was to me? I'm not sure anything I said disagrees with what you posted? I don't think gender as a "big issue" needs to be taught. Kids already know what gender is. Having language, for kids or adults, to express ideas is worthy in my mind without putting a lot of importance on it. Big, small, medium, boy, girl, nonbinary, blond, brunett, etc. But I said I wasn't going to get into what the government should or shouldn't do.

But really, now I've been pulled off the two points I was trying to make. Point 1- I was just pointing out that I see confusion within this thread. Gender identity is different than gender roles. The majority of the replies have combined these two things when within medical and gender studies fields they are seen as very separate things. Two, children do indeed have a set sense of gender by elementary age.

 

[Sideways]

@Muttly - yeah, sorry, it wasn’t all a big rant at you! Just more that I think you raised a big issue. There are kids who genuinely believe that they were born in the wrong body, and we don’t have a great track record in handling that well. And then my mind kind of wandered off:)

 

[Deleted member 33052]

A1

To me, what’s kind of offensive in all this is the concept that by playing with dolls or dressing in pink, I was ever making any kind of statement about my gender. That’s pure stereotype. So, if a kid is being taught that they’re being ‘gender fluid’ by wearing particular clothes? We’re strengthening stereotypes rather than diminishing them.

I wasn't suggesting that if children prefer atypical things that's an indicator of their gender, and I would like to think you're just playing devil's advocate here. I was suggesting an example of atypical behaviour that might be used as a conversation tool for parents.

I think maybe we're getting a bit off topic. This isn't about government sticking their noses into a child's gender identity. It's about encouraging young children to practice tolerance toward others who aren't considered gender typical. Just as they encourage tolerance toward others who look different or pray to different gods.

I still fail to see how young children could *not* benefit from this.

 

[Deleted member 33052]

Government should not be in the role of encouraging or being against it. They should only make sure these children are not teased or bullied.

Leave government schools out of definitions of self. Instead, work on teaching kids how to read and do math.

You agree, then, since the government isn't encouraging or being against it, rather, they are trying to make sure that transgendered children aren't being bullied.

I missed the part where I said government schools (?) are involved in defining self...

 

[Friday]

Who are you even talking to?

The thread. I was expanding on earlier thoughts.

My 1st post explained why, although equal rights & social/judicial equality are issues I firmly believe in, exactly why -as a parent- I would be pushing back against the government's proposed change to the curriculum &/or scope&sequence; My 3rd post expanded on why -as a student of history & anthropology- I get nervous about the government -any government- singling out certain groups, as they're doing with this proposed change. Micro & Macro. My thoughts on the subject. Which is what the OP was asking for.

(My 2nd post was an aside to Ronin, & my 4th post is an aside to you)

The fact that "the government" had entered this conversation at all is heartbreaking.

Right here is where the government got involved...

The ministry of education in my province is working to add the subject of gender identification to the classroom, beginning at the kindergarten level.

...from the very beginning. Literally the first sentence. As in it's the Ministry proposing this, and there is unexpected pushback from parents.

We are or WERE talking about kids which is a topic that is clearly lacking in both research and unbiased exploration.

Unsure if you're talking to me, or not, but if so? You're both right & wrong.

Unbiased? You're correct, I'm absolutely not. I'm a parent, and I have a very strongly biased opinion as to what I want being taught to my child.

Lacking in research & education? Well... 8 years of higher education that includes both developmental psych & and early childhood education, combined with several years of practical experience teaching in both private & govt. funded schools, a few years of writing curriculum, 5 years of homeschooling (in a community of nearly all k12 teachers and professors hs'ing their kids), ongoing continuing education, & 15 years a parent? Says you're completely wrong.

If speaking about others? I know for a fact there are people here in this thread who far outstrip me in both education & experience. Can't speak to their bias, however.

Disagreement doesn't equal ignorance. Reasonable people can, and do, differ.