Relationship This is a rant - save yourselves & look away now!

[mumstheword]

Something that might be helpful to realize about classic borderline personality disordered people is that they play the victim card HARD, different to PTSD sufferers who are often ashamed of having been.victimized and have trouble even acknowledging it. BPD play the victim or in their eyes even.more victim -PTSD card as a manipulative weapon. They will use it to get your sympathy or empathy and as a way of avoiding responsibity for their own abusive behaviour.
PTSD is never an excuse to be abusive. Most actual PTSD sufferers will avoid people much more when they are feeling highly reactive, and when triggered and hyperaroused they can be angry - fight or flighty, paranoid, hurt in a way that seems over-the-top for the circumstance but not in such a manipulative way, more a reactive way. They won't try to engage and engage in a shaming, belittling way, they will try to disengage to regain a sense of safety.
There is a huge smudge going on with PTSD and BPD I think because of the manipulative way that BPD people excell at claiming victimhood to take the focus off their own.transgressions. But many actual c-PTSD sufferers get misdiagnosed as having borderline and many borderline people manipulate their dignosticians into giving them a PTSD diagnosis as it kind of is the ultimate victim card to play to full advantage.

My partner has children to one of those types and he knows that ploy only too well.

PTSD sufferers aren't chronic liars and manipulators, BPD people tend to be. So that makes getting a clear diagnostic picture very tricky. No wonder there is such confusing and smudging around PTSD, c-PTSD and BPD.

 

[grimalkin]

When my sufferer started accusations of...just weird stuff sometimes...it was generally a sock to the gut - when I wasn't confused as hell by the accusation.

An example of the confusing: Once upon a time, when his daughter (of whom he did not have custody) was still a teen, she decided she wanted to do a purity pledge. Her church and family supported her (even us, even though we thought it was dumb - her body, her choice), they had a ceremony, the works. I am not Christian, and also have been a sex educator, and keep up on some of the current research. Based on that, I know that too many kids who pledge to be "pure" end up having unprotected sex and babies earlier than "average." I was curious about the "purity class" she had taken, what kind of sex ed it did in case hormones DO get the better of them, etc. (I was already one of her trusted adults for birth control if she needed/wanted it), so when he and I were talking about her upcoming ceremony and the silliness in general of purity pledges (and the creepiness of pledging your purity to your dad), I pointed out the statistics of higher sex and pregnancy rates - and he went OFF. "You're just calling her a slut! You think my daughter is a slut!" and on and on. I mean...we agreed on the topic. NEITHER of us are Christian, and he was kind of squicked out about the whole thing....but I mention actual facts and suddenly I'm the bad guy? It was totally out of left field and confused the HELL out of me.

A sock to the gut? Being accused of being abusive myself. I will own my flaws, especially when pointed out to me (oh, hello, co-dependency), and that one just hurt. I'm a cry-er when I'm angry, and for me to even raise my voice, I have to be pretty enraged. When I finally got the courage to ask what he meant, one response was that when I come home from work, I just dump all over him and blame him for everything and take out all my stress on him. I'll freely admit, my job was SUPER stressful. But all I ever did was TALK about it. I didn't blame him for anything, and I certainly didn't treat him poorly as a result. He (and home) was my refuge, not my dumping ground. He also said that when I cry, I'm just being manipulative. And sometimes I take too much joy in things and it's manipulative and fake. So basically? When I have emotions, it's abusive to him.

Anyway (sorry that got long!), my point is - some of the craziness that comes from the accusations from our sufferers can make us question EVERYTHING about ourselves. I honestly thought I had severe short-term memory problems because of HIS thinking that we had a conversation that in reality only happened in his head (I even talked to my doctor about it because I was worried. Memory problems ARE a potential side-effect of one of my medications, but in reality? I'm not as bad as he made me think. And it happened and still happens all. The. Time). I'm starting to claw my way out of the notion that I'm toxic and unfit for any future relationships, though I know I'm not ready to even try yet. I know where my co-dependency originates (hi, parents with untreated mental illness and volatile personalities!), and I'm actively working on improving myself.

It's so hard to remember that it's really NOT about us - especially for those of us who ARE self-reflective...we can start going down the path of "Well, it's actually true that I did....Maybe I AM a bad person...." And when the other person is in denial about what PTSD (and mental illness in general) can do? It's hard to not get pulled into that mindset ourselves. But the reality is, until they can see just what an effect their mental illness truly has, there really is no way to get past it. And all we can really do at that point is walk away - or let them push us.

 

[fac]

I'm sorry that you are hurting, but from my very limited experience with anxiety or personality disorders, without her receiving help things will not only not get better but will gradually get worse. I find that most supporters that stay with the abuse do so until they have reached there pain threshold. Please take care of yourself. Staying and being abused and potentially being damaged yourself. WON'T HELP HER.

 

[ByrnesT]

Thanks again all. @mumstheword @grimalkin @fac you’ve really given me A LOT to think about. Stuff that never crossed my mind & things I’ll admit I’m not all too familiar with.

I am going to do some reading on BPD. There are certainly elements here that I can definitely recognise. There are certain elements that don’t fit quite as well as others. But I think it’s worth exploring.

And before anyone jumps on me, I only want to read to understand the possibilities & prepare for IF she ever does take steps to address things. I am NOT trying to play doctor & diagnosing!

I am also still exploring what my issues are for continually putting myself through this. What am I trying to achieve & why.

I do still feel a little bad (& a tad pathetic) for sharing some of my stories of things she has said & done. But I feel that by doing that maybe people here have got a little more of a grasp of what has been going on, which I did need. Needed to know I wasn’t selfish for being hurt by these things. That I wasn’t crazy in my interpretations. Again, I know I’m not, but the doubts do creep in after a while.

But as you say @grimalkin , if you’re questioning yourself, if you’re reflecting, if you’re self-analysing, then I don’t think you can be all bad. Or at least, you’re on the right track.

 

[Scarlet13]

Hi, so I have CPTSD and a very loving supportive husband.
I can be horrible to him at times. In our early days I repeatedly broke up with him. I have repeatedly threatened divorce. I have insulted him, guilt tripped him, and manipulated him.
This was all I knew of intimacy.
I grew up with a narcissistic mother and a sociopathic step father.
He would not show her affection. He would rage at her and hit her.
But she would dish out right back. She would dominate him with her words.
This was my normal.
When I get triggered I literally almost think my husband is my stepfather. And I can act like my mom. I can have a knee jerk reaction to want to manipulate and control.
I am also terrified of intimacy.
But, I have been in therapy for the past 5 years and it has saved me. My husband and I have a bond and a connection. He is extremely caring and will put up with a lot.
One time I came home from therapy and told him that I have absolutely emotionally abused him. Therapy gives you awareness and skills to handle symptoms so you dont lash out.
It isnt just about healing my PTSD, therapy makes it possible to have a healthy relationship.
I honestly did not know how to love until I found my therapist who modeled that.
My husband is working on setting boundaries and on using self care, but it is all hard work.
I know that I have many issues, but I am honest, humble and willing to see my husband's needs and to work on myself.

It sound like that is not happening at all for you. You are putting up with a lot. You are putting up with emotional abuse and you are not setting boundaries.
This goes beyond PTSD and into she is being a shitty spouse and not owning anything or taking responsibility.

aybe not tonight! But in general!)

And possibly what I’ve got to come to terms with is that maybe I’ve just been very foolish & I believed in the wrong person? I don’t doubt there is an illness here, but maybe there’s also just a selfish, arrogant, abusive, controlling & bullying person in there too.

Yes, I think this is true. And if she is in denial about needing help, you are not going to see any change.

 

[nursenurse]

Truly it doesn't matter what condition she has. No diagnosis can be made without a professional. You can surmise, google to your heart's content, and look for ways to legitimize her behaviour, that, from what I have read, is self serving, manipulative and abusive. If someone is causing you so much grief that you need help, while they refuse to accept any, then it is time for you to change the dynamics. As in, get out, and learn to respect yourself more. If you have done everything as you say to 80-90% to try and be understanding and helpful, while not receiving even a shred of respect, then you have lost the battle before it has begun.

Use your therapy wisely, try to understand why you would put up with such nonsense that is detrimental to your own well being, and save yourself. You need to put your own oxygen mask on. She can put on her own. There is someone out there who will gladly accept the giving person that you are, and happily reciprocate. In any relationship, it is give and take, sometimes one gives well over the 50%, as you are now, and then it is the other's turn. Sometimes things balance out in different ways. No one can sustain what you are doing forever without receiving something in return, like respect, or a shred of joy. If you continue in this relationship, you will miss out. Good luck to you, I know this is heart breaking for you...

 

[ByrnesT]

Thank you for sharing @Scarlet13 . I really respect your honesty.

As I think I have said previously in another thread, as much as I know my partner can’t just “fix” this, as much as I know this is for life, if she was able to at least be honest & reflect as you clearly have & do, I would feel far more like I have someone I can work with. I’d feel we had hope of making things work for us.

As well as other people who have hurt her, my partner also had an awful stepfather who was abusive to her mother. This is obviously a huge foundation to the problems & her issues with men. I could potentially become her children’s stepfather, I assume this is terrifying for her. And, I think, made even more terrifying because she does in fact trust me.

I want to set boundaries but I struggle with it & that is my failings. I take it all so personally. I believe she believes what she is accusing me of. That she believes these alternative narratives she has created. I think if later on with hindsight she was able to step away & recognise at least a little of what happened, then I would find it easier to not let it affect me in the moment. But the reality is no matter how much time passes, she will generally always maintain her stance. Often even changing what actually happened to make me out to be even worse again.

Yet she also tells me that she has had to apologise for so much in the relationship. She has had to take the blame for everything. I’m not sure when these moments are meant to have happened! I may tell her when she doesn’t treat me well, it’s incredibly rarely accepted tho.

On top of this, she also tells me in every single debate we ever have that I think I’m perfect & that I never accept I have done anything wrong. But I do. All the time. When I do get sucked in & lose my composure I will as quickly as I can regather myself & apologise. Explaining that as upset as I am by her, it is my responsibility to control my emotions. I basically nip it in the bud as quickly as I can & am genuinely remorseful, so it doesn’t become a big conversation. Maybe that’s why she’s missing it?!

She tells me all the time how I’ve done so much wrong in the relationship too, that I have been vile & cruel. Yet she doesn’t seem to ever give me any examples of this supposed wrongdoing or cruelty. Don’t get me wrong, I have made mistakes. I think there’s a difference in making mistakes in a relationship tho & doing things that are wrong.

Can I ask @Scarlet13 how did you come to recognise you needed to seek therapy etc?

 

[Sweetpea76]

Part of what attracts me to my vet is that he is smart and confident in his intelligence... however that makes him a stubborn motherf*cker. He has a tendency to "know everything" and believe he is always right. That comes with its own set of challenges. Obviously mental illness mixed in with that attitude makes some conversations feel like running face first into a brick wall.

You can't outsmart PTSD no matter what he thinks.

I've come to a point where for my own mental health I've had to systematically refuse to engage pretty much anytime he gets accusatory or lashes out. Sometimes in certain situations I have to listen to it and take it... but I still don't engage. If I can shut down the bullshit I do.

There is a huge difference between having a conversation and being berated like a piece of garbage. I will take responsibility for my own baggage and actions, and I will have any calm conversation he wants to have. I will not, however, be scolded like a child for things that have no basis in reality.

I have fully made peace with the fact he may leave me for it. I love him but I cannot live like that.

It happens way WAY less than it used to. I think he knows that I'm over it. That I'm done apologizing for things I did not do. I think he actually appreciates the fact that I shut things down before they wind up and he ends up making an ass of himself. I know he appreciates that I don't let him victimize me anymore.

I cannot support him and be the stable partner if he has beaten me down into a pulp.

 

[ByrnesT]

Thank you @nursenurse i can’t disagree with a word you or anyone else is saying. Just wish it was so much easier to put into practice. I don’t want to admit she’s these things. I guess I don’t want to admit I was maybe wrong about her.

What goes round in my head is if she was speaking to anyone with her versions of events, about me & the relationship, with people who she would never allow see the sides of her that I do...they would all be saying to her what all of you are saying to me.

She would convince people I’m a bad, misguided partner. That I’m selfish & cruel. That I don’t care about her & I’m trying to convince her she’s unwell & needs help. People would be telling her I sound toxic.

And I know those things aren’t true. I’m still strong enough in my mind to know what is true & what is not. But at same time, even I am beginning to question reality.

And I know I shouldn’t care what other people potentially think of me. But I do.

I guess that’s why I ranted here & shared a small number of stories. It’s not to disgrace her or a need to be told I’m right, it’s the fact I’m sick of being painted as the bad guy when I really feel I’ve done so much for her. I’ve never tried so hard for a partner. And yet I feel I’ve been treated really quite crap every step of the way.

 

[Sideways]

She has had to take the blame for everything.

This seems to be a recurring thing.

For what it’s worth? Often, the truth is she hasn’t necessarily taken the blame for anything. Just as likely? This is a reflection lf what has actually been going on for her internally. When you carry an immense amount of shame around, you do things like that - mentally assuming the blame for everything. It’s all my fault, or at least, it may as well be and that’s what everyone believes anyways, etc etc.

It’s really difficult to know for sure. But when she says “This is what happened...” and it doesn’t match up with what actually happened? It’s potentially because of lot of what she’s experiencing is confined to internal struggles.

A lot of the warped core beliefs that come with ptsd seem so incredibly real that it’s very easy to assume they’re as obvious to everyone else as theybare to the sufferer. “Everything is my fault” is a common one. And if she struggles with that internally, she is very likely to genuinely believe that this is obvious to you as well.

 

[grimalkin]

And I know I shouldn’t care what other people potentially think of me. But I do.

That's a thing for me, too. I have NO IDEA what my sufferer has told his family about me, and I intellectually know it's none of my business, but DAMN. I hate being lied about. Sometimes I have to remind myself constantly that it's none of my business what anyone else thinks of me. :cautious:

Every day, I get a little closer to not just knowing, but believing, it's none of my business, I didn't make a huge mistake even getting involved with my sufferer, and that I will be ok. I get a little closer to telling myself, "You know what, no. This is bullshit. If he's not filing for divorce, I am because he's obviously also not trying to get me back." And I get a little closer to believing that it really is ok for me to not only have wants, desires, and needs, but to actually try to meet them.

Working with my therapist has also really helped me start to move through my co-dependency, and has helped me learn that I have every right to exist, completely, without having to apologize to anyone else, or try to meet anyone else's expectations, or play by anyone else's rules. And that no one else has to meet mine. AND that I'm allowed to have boundaries (that's huge - I had no idea how badly being told as a child that I had no right to feel anything other than acceptance, happiness, and gratefulness towards my parents did a number on me). And this work is starting to allow me to forgive myself for seeking relationships when I'm obviously messed up, myself. :bag:

 

[LuckiLee]

I seriously don't know how you do it @ByrnesT. You mentioned she's been like this since you met her. Why did you get so involved?

Believe me my guy has some pretty bad days. And verbally lashes out. The reason I stay... Is he's in therapy. He's making progress. He acknowledges his diagnosis. He apologizes when he's made me feel bad or lashed out at me. Etc.

If he wasn't doing those things. I'd be long gone. I pray your girl wakes up and decides to seek help. If not. This will be your life.

Keep sharing. And decide what you want. And don't want.