In family therapy with narc-ish family; reveal aspergers dx?

[scout86]

I've not yet found a way around that particular filter of hers to explain my position in a way that makes sense to her.

I'm not saying that your mother has NPD. But, I've had some family members that my T thinks really do/did, so we've talked about dealing with them. I finally asked him, "So, there's really only two choices, avoid them or kill them?" He cringed but say that was basically true. The thing is, with that kind of disorder, and for the people who live along that spectrum of behaviors, no one else DOES have a right to cross them. And they are incredibly good at twisting things to suit their world view. When my mom died, there was a conflict with my brother. I finally hired a lawyer, because there was no way I could carry on a conversation with him. After a few weeks, I got a call from the lawyer. He said my brother had called him. That he had wondered why I hired him and now he knew.

My family believes "healthy" is defined by "closeness",

Part of this might be the way I'm wired, but I see a difference between "closeness" and "smothering". I've spent quite a bit of time observing apparently "normal" families. (Which, maybe, sounds weird.) What I've noticed is that families can be close and still appreciate family members for who they are. I've actually seen parents who seem to delight in finding out that their kid has unique interests that make them different from everyone else. And I suspect a healthy kind of closeness is more possible there, because the kids actually feel accepted. What happens in your family sounds more like "control" than closeness.

They might claim now that they never tried to fit me into their box,

Earlier they didn't HAVE to. They raised you to believe that fitting into their box was your job. I"m REALLY impressed that you ever came to question that.

In reality, I feel like a burden and a failure to be changing in a way that is so painful for the people around me.

For what it's worth, I wish you didn't feel that way! You sound like anything BUT a burden. At worst, you're shaking things up a little for them. And that's uncomfortable. But I think we have to get outside our comfort zone to learn anything. Granted, they probably aren't all that interested in learning.

for her to judge my behavior by how close she feels to me,

Something that seemed to bring at least a vague sense of peace in my family (probably false peace) was that my mother had her ideas she expressed about what her relationships with people were. Most of them weren't accurate, but she was happy with them. So I tended to leave them alone, even if I thought she was way off. I was lucky, because she really didn't care enough about me to bother with me. She had her labels, I didn't care, and we each went on with our lives. She was more involved with my brother. (They each thought they could "handle" the other, and I've heard both of them say that. LOL) So, if there's a way your mother can have her ideas of "what" you are, even if they aren't accurate, and you can do your job AND live your life, that might be the best you're going to get out of this. Even that seems like a tall order.

 

[Anarchy]

You and I start from the premise that "healthy" is defined by "freedom." My family believes "healthy" is defined by "closeness", or at least the appearance of closeness. Is that a personality difference? Cultural difference? (we live in the South, where families are often close to the point of having very little privacy) Psychological health difference? Basically, are their expectations for closeness wrong, in the sense that what they're wanting from me is by definition inappropriate? Or are their expectations simply an acceptable variation that works well for some people while perhaps not being compatible for others?

That's an incredibly perceptive articulation of that question.

It's a question that occurs far beyond families and has massive implications

At least 200 million people were murdered by governments in the 20th century, mostly by govrnments run by people who took your mother's viewpoint.

Sorry, I accidentally hit post

Physically, people are individuals.

The question of what, if anything we "owe" each other beyond not aggressing against each other's person and property, bedevils human society.

Several thinkers who I've got some time for, for example David Friedman (Nobel winning economist Milton Friedman's son) and the late Frank Chodorov, maintained that we are born.
Friedman jokes that he is willing to accept that there might be a genetic defect.

Ours is the logical position, articulated in the modern world by people like John Lillburn a leading thinker in the leveller movement in the English revolution of the 1640s (a hugely principled man, he was repeatedly imprisoned, tortured and mutilated for his thoughts, including being branded on his cheeks and having an eye gouged out).

Anyone who says that the thoughts and principles he elaborated are the selfish justifications of privilege by later more comfortably off, establishment people like John Locke and slave owner Thomas Jefferson, who developed lilburns thoughts further, is sadly missing the point.

We are in the most basic sense, individualists.
Your mother and sister are both, in the most basic sense, collectivists.

That's without going into any of the political implications that logically derive from those two different basic starting points.

 

[DogwoodTree]

The question of what, if anything we "owe" each other beyond not aggressing against each other's person and property, bedevils human society.

We are in the most basic sense, individualists.
Your mother and sister are both, in the most basic sense, collectivists.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and did some research on collectivism vs individualism. I might be missing some of the significance of the dichotomy, but at the moment, I don't think it's the most accurate dichotomy for this situation. Here are some rambling thoughts, but I'm out of time to respond to the other comments or clean this up for greater consistency of logic.

On the one hand, I have noticed collectivist values in my mom's preferences and decisions...such as trying to make sure my sister and I equally benefit from the business, regardless of who does the most work. Also there's her hierarchical authoritarianism, where she sees herself as the only legitimate decision maker. She allows us to make decisions as long as those decisions conform to her preferences. If we wander from her will, there's not a gentle exploration where differing viewpoints are mined for the value we contribute, possibly followed by retraining if that's necessary...there's instead a somewhat derogative accusation followed by stricter controls, as if of course the only correct decision at any given time is the one she would have made.

On the other hand, I don't see my own priorities as being highly individualistic in nature. I do care deeply for the greater good of the entire team. From my perspective, though, freedom is what's best for everyone rather than such a heavy emphasis on closeness. It seems to me, freedom for each of us to become more fully who we can be instead of who someone else wants us to be, and in this we can offer our individual strengths to the entire team...it seems this would be what's best for the team as well as for each individual. We all three have significant strengths to offer, which are only fully available when we're encouraged to be ourselves instead of expected to become a carbon copy of mom.

It seems we all want what's best for the team, but we differ on how to get there--basically, we differ on where the locus of control should reside...individually or hierarchically? I think, if my sister and I were still in our 20's and fresh out of college, and our mom was decades away from retirement, then a hierarchical control structure might make more sense as we figure out life and business and all that. But we're middle aged and proven responsible in our own careers and households (we both have families), my mom wanted to be retired already, and basically we should already be well on our way to the transition of decision-making control to the next generation, not still hanging out at the level where my mom wants us both working right next to her so she can watch everything we're doing and use our brains to process her own thoughts and so on. My sister prefers that arrangement because she struggles with staying focused and managing her time and procrastinating her work, and so somehow the two of them have worked out a system that helps my sister stay focused. But that's not me. Why is that such a bad thing in my mom's mind?

At any rate, I think we're looking more at a locus of control dichotomy, rather than a set of values dichotomy. But it also plays into values...freedom vs. closeness. So I'm still not sure if my thoughts are on track with this or not. Will think on it some more.

 

[scout86]

Why is that such a bad thing in my mom's mind?

I'm going to guess it's because she's not REALLY ready to give up control. But I AM guessing. She really DOES sound like she believes she's got all the best answers. Also like she's not comfortable watching other people do things their own way, because she perceives that as "making mistakes". Your sister, maybe, is ok with your mother making decisions for her? You'd rather use your own gifts and abilities? (Totally makes sense to me!)

From what I've heard, this kind of thing, to one degree or another, is a challenge for a lot of family businesses. It's hard for a lot of people to give up control.

 

[DogwoodTree]

The thing is, with that kind of disorder, and for the people who live along that spectrum of behaviors, no one else DOES have a right to cross them. And they are incredibly good at twisting things to suit their world view.

So, do they think they're making space for other people to have their own opinions while they're really not (which at least would let them have the appearance of equity in the relationship), or do they truly believe there's only one right answer, which is their own? I've watched my mom appear to value someone else's opinion, only to rewrite it into something that conforms with her position. She's actually very good at that when she wants to be, making the other person feel like they contributed a really good idea when really all that happened was that she reinterpreted and directed their statements until they coincided with her position. When I first started working with a professional therapist, he had to teach me what it's like to truly be curious about another person's position, not with the intent of changing that person's mind or determining what I had to appear to believe in order to be accepted, but simply to understand an alternative position without giving up my own. I'm still working on learning how to do that.

After a few weeks, I got a call from the lawyer. He said my brother had called him. That he had wondered why I hired him and now he knew.

That must have been highly validating for you.

Part of this might be the way I'm wired, but I see a difference between "closeness" and "smothering".

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe this is true. There can be no true intimacy without true freedom. And so, smothering by definition would prevent any real intimacy.

What I've noticed is that families can be close and still appreciate family members for who they are. I've actually seen parents who seem to delight in finding out that their kid has unique interests that make them different from everyone else.

This is more how I am with my kids. My mom delights in anything about me or my kids that is just like her. But I love the things about my kids that make them different than me and unique in our family. I like things about them that are like me, too (even though I don't necessarily like those things in myself...when it's in them, it seems okay and good). But I especially like seeing the ways each of them is developing in their own unique fashion, with their own interests and strengths and everything else. I said in a family session the other day that none of my kids needs a diagnosis in order to justify their differences or needs or anything else. They each get to be just themselves, whatever that is, and it's a wonderful thing. That's really all I'm asking for in my family, too. I'm not trying to change any of them or demand anything from them other than acceptance and respect for what I bring to the table. And I realize I kind of resent the fact I had to give my dx in order to be given that freedom to be different. Remains to be seen if that will be sufficient.

I was lucky, because she really didn't care enough about me to bother with me.

Isn't it bizarre when emotional negligence is a "good" thing in a relationship, because being given attention would be too destructive? I had a miscarriage a few years ago, and my mom took off the next day for a planned overseas trip. She later apologized for not supporting me more during that time when I was grieving, but really, I was thankful she left because I didn't have the energy to figure out how to take care of her and hide my struggle while I was so deeply heartbroken. I just wanted her to leave me alone for a while so I could work through things myself. Turns out, a big part of that was the asperger's, too, but at the time, I didn't yet realize that I wouldn't be able to receive emotional support from people...I just thought I hadn't figured it out yet and needed to keep working on it, but I knew I did not want to work on that with her.

Your sister, maybe, is ok with your mother making decisions for her? You'd rather use your own gifts and abilities?

Yes, I think she is to a degree, and sees it as "leaning on the older generation's wisdom", which has benefits but should also have limits. I think there's also a strange codependency thing going on there, too, though, where my sister has some of her own issues that my mom tiptoes around. My T has pointed out that my sister is particularly reactive, and I think that scares my mom, but mom has to maintain the illusion of being loving towards her and in control of the business while also going to great lengths to not trigger my sister's reactivity.

And yes, I would definitely prefer to rely on my own strengths and abilities. Wouldn't any healthy adult? Isn't that what it means to be an autonomous adult? One of our customers one time pointed out it was obvious to her that I was working hard and "not riding my mom's coattails", and she said she really appreciated that. It seems to me that should be the goal, not trying to replicate exactly who my mom has been, but rather become fully myself in this business. I have a lot to offer here that would benefit all of us if they can give me the freedom to become fully myself.

From what I've heard, this kind of thing, to one degree or another, is a challenge for a lot of family businesses. It's hard for a lot of people to give up control.

I've read the same thing in my research, and so I try to have compassion for how my mom is experiencing this process. I wrote an email last fall describing my empathy for her on this...intended as an olive branch...and she turned it around into some kind of "confession" that I had been holding back and not doing my best and therefore deserved to be fired because she couldn't work with someone who would purposely hold back on the work. After that, my T warned me to minimize offerings of empathy like that because clearly she was working really hard to distort anything I said and make it look like I was to blame for all this, instead of trying to hear my heart and intent in what I said.

 

[scout86]

So, do they think they're making space for other people to have their own opinions while they're really not (which at least would let them have the appearance of equity in the relationship), or do they truly believe there's only one right answer, which is their own?

I don't think I know the answer to that. It's something I've thought about a LOT. My best guess, right now, is that they might recognize that they are "supposed" to make space for people to have their own opinions, but it's impossibly hard. I really have come to think of this way of thinking as a spectrum, analogous to the autism spectrum. At one end, maybe you have people who are excessively self involved. At the other end, you have psychopaths. With a lot of variations in between. So someone who's more or less a "pure narcissist" might truly believe that they, and their beliefs are all that matters and they see to think everyone else should see things the same way. They go through life more or less demanding that and feel what seems to them to be legitimate victimization when it doesn't work that way. (My brother seems to be like that.) Others seem to think not only are they the only ones who matter, other people exist to be used, by them, however they want. I think there's as much variation as there is with autism, or PTSD, for that matter.

When I first started working with a professional therapist, he had to teach me what it's like to truly be curious about another person's position, not with the intent of changing that person's mind or determining what I had to appear to believe in order to be accepted, but simply to understand an alternative position without giving up my own. I'm still working on learning how to do that.

I think that's one of the very best characteristics a person can have! And I think you do it well. (I can't help but believe you had a natural aptitude or inclination when you met that T.) Now that I think about it, that kind of curiosity has caused me some problems over the years. People who have an inclination towards narcissism seem to be very upset by it. I have no idea why.

That must have been highly validating for you.

It was! I later told both the lawyer and my T it was worth the cost, just for that one moment. LOL

There can be no true intimacy without true freedom.

I totally agree! Someone who stays in your life because of fear is your slave. To have a really worthwhile relationship, I think people have to know each other accurately, as they really are, and then love each other anyway. In spite of or because of who they are. Doesn't matter, the relationship has to be built on truth.

And yes, I would definitely prefer to rely on my own strengths and abilities. Wouldn't any healthy adult? Isn't that what it means to be an autonomous adult?

I think so! It's the "healthy" part that the problem. You may have challenges, but you're working on them. To me, that's healthy. Your mother and sister seem more dedicated to defending the status quo. I don't see that as very healthy. But, because of the way they see they world, it probably seems ok to them. I'm not sure what you do with a situation like that.

My T has pointed out that my sister is particularly reactive, and I think that scares my mom, but mom has to maintain the illusion of being loving towards her and in control of the business while also going to great lengths to not trigger my sister's reactivity.

I think there was a dynamic sort of like that between my brother and my mother. Now and then, she'd comment that she had to do what he wanted because "she needed him". She was older. He lived near by. (She'd actually decided that she & my dad should move to be near him.) She depended on him. But all of that was a choice! She had other options. Anyway, she went out of her way to placate him sometimes. But she also expressed the belief that she could control him and knew how to manage him. He said the same about her. (I was glad I wasn't on either of their radar screens!)

Isn't it bizarre when emotional negligence is a "good" thing in a relationship, because being given attention would be too destructive?

Yes! And I can really relate to your story about your miscarriage. Having to manage both your own grief and your mother. I can totally relate to that.
The other day, at the end of my session, my T said, "Well, Sun is Mother's Day, so I have to ask......" I said, "What?" Then I went on to say that, if he was wondering how it affected me, it didn't. It was just another day. I'm aware that I'm supposed to have some sort of feelings about my mother, but I honestly don't. She'd dead, she can't scare me. That was about all there was is fear and stress. I'm also aware that it doesn't go well the say that to most people. LOL But, yeah, I think I was lucky in a weird way. I actually feel sorry for my brother because I don't think he's really capable of appreciating another person for who they actually are, and I think he's poorer for that.

After that, my T warned me to minimize offerings of empathy like that because clearly she was working really hard to distort anything I said and make it look like I was to blame for all this, instead of trying to hear my heart and intent in what I said.

I'm totally sure that's accurate. I didn't really understand the dynamic, but I learned really early not to share what I was thinking or feeling with my mom, because that's what happened. I'm pretty sure that was the origin of learning to not recognize I even HAD feelings. Why bother, if no one cares? But, this sort of thing is really too bad. You can't have much of a relationship if you have to be on guard all the time, OR if you refuse to accept the emotional gifts someone wants to give you.

This is more how I am with my kids. My mom delights in anything about me or my kids that is just like her. But I love the things about my kids that make them different than me and unique in our family.

This is really cool. Especially because you figured it out without having it modeled for you growing up. I wonder how that works, but I'm really glad that it does!