How do you define bravery as opposed to cowardice?

[Never_falter2]

This question just came to my mind when I was re-reading the discussion in the fireworks thread. Hope it is not inappropriate.

Okay I‘ll start. I would say that cowardice must always have a person hurt by the cowardice or it is just caution or vigilance. Bravery on the other hand must always have a person benefitting from the bravery or it is just foolhardiness.

 

[Justmehere]

I would say that cowardice must always have a person hurt by the cowardice or it is just caution or vigilance.

I disagree.

One can hurt someone and not be a coward. Perps are not always cowards.

One can also be brave and not have the bravery benefit others or even themselves.

My dog was brave today. She walked up to a plastic bag that spooked her. No one benefited from this. She just had a moment of feeling fear, and yet pushing towards a goal anyhow. Did the goal really benefit her or me? Not really. It was a very unusual bag and situation. She was still brave.

 

[Never_falter2]

How would you define it then?

 

[Justmehere]

@Never_falter - How would I define it beyond the dictionary definitions?

I wouldn’t base the difference between cowardice and bravery on outcomes and “benefit” alone. That’s your only defining difference between cowardice and caution, bravery and foolhardiness.

Take my friend who bravely faced a bad medical procedure. It wasn’t foolish to try it. The procedure didn’t benefit her. It caused harm. Not benefit. She was still brave to do it.

Many people who have survived trauma and some of the worst things that can happen on this planet know that sometimes all the bravery in the world isn’t enough to always lead to positive benecial outcomes to themselves or others. But courage and bravery are still very real even when things do not work out as they should.

 

[Virtues]

brave - combating adverse conditions in spite fear
coward - backing down from adverse conditions and feeding into fear

 

[Never_falter2]

Okay. I see. I just started with this definition because @Florian7051 (if I got him right) hold the opinion that vets who put up „no fireworks“ signs in their yards are cowards, because they have a victim mentality and I disagree because who is actually harmed by it? It is not a full definition, which I do not have right now, but a start... But true sometimes people do something brave with the intent of a helping others but it does not work out is they thought... they are still brave...

But then if you do something risky... like speeding with your car... I would not call that bravery unless somebody benegits or you hope that somebody benefits... and similar I would not call it cowardice when you avoid all risks. That is just vigilance to my mind.

 

[Virtues]

vets who put up „no fireworks“ signs in their yards are cowards, because they have a victim mentality

This is not exactly what I said...

The context of what I was saying was:

That vets who refuse to get help, knowing that they have a problem, and rather push the burden of their symptoms off onto other people to shoulder for them are cowards... The simple act of putting out a sign does not make anyone a coward... however it does reinforce the victim mentality (which is different than being a coward)

 

[Never_falter2]

But could you give an example of this how the man who is a coward is acting.
I think vets cannot be cowards, because cowards do not join the military. Would be a pretty stupid thing for a coward to do.

 

[Virtues]

I think vets cannot be cowards, because cowards do not join the military

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Part of my trauma was being abandon on the battlefield because of heavy enemy fire. I was pinned down by enemy machine gun fire and the majority of my platoon ran for cover while I was left to dry. If it wasn't for the acts of a few "brave" Marines, who knows how the situation might have ended up. Do I blame the people that ran? No! This is the fog of war. I would call their actions cowardice though. And the actions of the men who closed with and engaged the enemy? Their actions were "brave". I cannot think of a better example.

 

[Esterio]

Because of social anxiety I am scared in public. Does that make me a coward or am I showing bravery climbing out of my hole and trying to socialize.

 

[Virtues]

Does that make me a coward

absolutely not a coward...

bravery isn't the absence of fear; it is combating those conditions in spite the fear being there.

 

[desiderata310]

This question made me think of a couple of things:

1. AJJ - Brave As A Noun & Survival Song (KVRX Library Session)
AJJ.
No, I insist you listen to the WHOLE thing (even though he flubs the words about halfway through the Survival Song.) The Survival Song (the second song) is kind of a personal anthem. (and if you listen the whole way through you'll kind of get why it might be)

2. I remember once hearing that brave was doing something even though you were scared to do so.

Cowardice, I've decided is simply running away from doing the RIGHT thing. We are talking about adults who have choices. Not Children and from my limited understanding of war (I can only draw unfair parallels in domestic violence) the heat of the moment is not always the place to make accurate conclusions about what someone is 'made of'. (that's me gently sidestepping what I don't understand)

On my better days, I regard myself as more of a coward than most of the days I was married: the days I was getting up after I'd been sucker punched to show him I was still alive. But that was only on my good days back then.
On my bad days? I stayed down. I gave in and let him have the laugh. Which day was I a coward? I dunno. Part of me says all of them because I stayed for a really long f*cking time.

I'm losing the thread a little...

And we SHO as hell ain't talking about asking for people to just respect boundaries. Don't f*ckING shoot off fireworks because you don't know if that mo'fo is asking so that he isn't jumping behind the couch or so he doesn't come after you with a knife. It's a boundary. f*cking respect it.
A f*cking trigger is a trigger is a trigger. Something happened- whether in the course of life or fighting for your country -that caused something to go haywire in the wiring of the brain. That has NOTHING to do with bravery. It's a hippocampus and amygdala not playing nice in the sandbox.

And I'm not going to go into all the permutations of this. It's too complicated to try to explain why someone stands down when they "shoulda, coulda, woulda"

Life is too full of missed opportunity, self hatred and flagellation. There's no reason to feed it or to thrust a personal supposition upon someone else.
you don't know their life.

Some days I'm doing good to get out of bed in the morning and let the dog out for a piss. Other days? I'm able to deal with a 6'5" guy towering over me and bellowing at the top of him lungs, and can look him square in the eye and tell him in a calm, sweet voice to go f*ck himself.

Go figure.