How do you define "love"?

[Abstract]

I understand what you are saying. No. What they did was self gratification. They didn't consider your wellbeing. Your interests. You rights as a tiny human being. That isn't love. Who knows. There may have been moments but its hard to see how anyone able to do what they did would have moments. What they did was about them not you. Thats a fundamental requirement with anything loving. It needs to be about the other persons well being and them.

If it was love then you wouldn't be on this site right now as you would have been nurtured not harmed. You were harmed when you should have been loved.

 

[Sideways]

Would you tell someone they are not worthy to breath or don't deserve to drink water?

Nope - absolutely wouldn’t. But for me, I think worth and need are 2 slightly different concepts.

I’m gonna put it out there. I don’t think you need love. I think it makes your life better that you have love (because that’s what is so special about Chopper, yeah?). But you’re a fighter, and if fate dealt you a shitty hand and you somehow ended up completely isolated? I think you’d survive.

Love is something that makes our life richer. But we survive without it. If I stop breathing? I’ll most likely die pretty quick. Love? I can survive without it. And so can you.

But if we turn this into a conversation about ‘worth’? That’s confronting. You are worthy of love. You are worthy of having your life enriched that way. You are worthy of more than just the absolute basics that keep you alive. You are worthy of love not because it’s just something you need to keep you alive, but because you are worthy of more - worthy of love.

And for me? That’s what makes the concept difficult to swallow. I can wrap my mind around being a living, breathing being that needs things like air, water, food. But the concept that I might be worthy of actual love? Not because it will keep me alive, but because I have worth? That’s something I struggle to wrap my mind around.

There are people who aren’t worthy of love (my primary abuser, your primary abusers - they aren’t worthy). But you are. There’s something more to you than just being a living breathing being that needs essentials like air, water, food. You are worthy of more. You are worthy of love.

Doesn’t sit comfortably. But I think making peace with that concept - I am worthy of love - is where the healing is...maybe...

 

[Abstract]

...but then I think about the Marlou Monkeys... Not so sure. Not talking about a love relationship as an adult of course.

 

[Friday]

but so is selfless love, or, hell, just the decision to give the other everything, some forms of loyalty, etc

:sneaky: reminds me of...

Sooooome people call it codependency. We call it teamwork.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... technically that interdependency, when betwixt equals. Parenting or mentor ship when it’s not. Still. I ♥ the teamwork angle.

Do know someone will bring up the whole different types of love thing so may as well be me.

<grin > I love the Roman/Latin (Greek) view on Love!

...although I’ve added a 5th

Eros - Romantic / Passionate
Amos - Friendship
Filios - Brotherly / Familial
Agape - Divine
Duty / Honor / Loyalty - (Ethos?)

To me, @lostforgottensoul, true love / partnership? Has a kiss from all 5. That’s what makes it a partnership betwixt equals. Which isn’t to say that all 5 (or 3:5, etc.) necessarily outweigh any single form of love. I love my son (filios) more than anyone else on the planet. It may someday contain aspects of Amos, but it will never have Eros. So, for me, true love isn’t the be all end all. It’s simoly a very specific pairing.

Nor, just because a relationship or interaction contains elements of the above, does it mean that it rises to the level of love.

- Not all sex is romantic/passionate love. Sometimes it’s just sex.
- Not all friendship / acquaintances rise to Amos.
- Not all family rates Filios.
- Not all religion or spiritual practice is present predicts Agape.
- Duty/ Honor / Loyalty are -to me- choices made out of SELF respect, first & foremost. It exists whether or not the person, place, thing, etc. it’s bestowed upon actually deserves it, and I can revoke my choice to ally with that person/ place/ thing according to the dictates of my own conscience. Just because it’s the place in my heart that vows come from? Doesn’t mean that all commitments rise to the level of sworn standing.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

But if we turn this into a conversation about ‘worth’?

No, because that's where I struggle. To me I am not worthy of anything good. Love? Is "good" (for most). Me? I've done very bad things and am a monster in my head. There are things I am "worthy" of in my head. To be drowned and to be cut and to be locked up and to be sold for sex? Sure. But love? No way! Thus why he is taking "worthy of" and "deserving of" out of the mix. 9 years of therapy and I am still not worthy of a damn thing that's good in my own head. That's where it gets muddied and mixed up.

Eros - Romantic / Passionate

Sex. Never thought of it any other way. Usually abusive. Def painful. Also dominating (him), submissive (me). And always...just sex.

Amos - Friendship

One sided. Always. A doormat (me).

Filios - Brotherly / Familial

Disfuctional. Abandoning. Will be abandoned.

Agape - Divin

Insanity.

Duty / Honor / Loyalty - (Ethos?)

Not a vet but a vet's daughter so I can sort of relate to that. That would be always and forever for me.

Those are the words that came to me for each. I suppose each needs to be redefined some how?

 

[Ronin]

Me? I've done very bad things and am a monster in my head. There are things I am "worthy" of in my head.

Three different things, though? And one does not predict the other.
Did bad things, maybe (one piece), being a monster, (another piece), deserving / worth, third piece.
What if I said some monsters deserve good things?
Or that monster is such a black and white term that does not assist all that much, or is something that is transitory? (As in, for those things, maybe. But that is then. That is not a monster forever. Monsters that are forever are people who forced you to do those things. Where that idea they do not deserve the nice, applies. And still there are limits to how much of not nice.)

Other things on your list can be also reframed, as either different way to look at, or as transitory states... and like damn, making decisions about self harm and life value and what not, based on something that will pass, maybe in a few years, but pass.

And: Always / Forever (where sworn, where felt, where lived by?) Does not have to be in your life, though. In your head, heart, bones, yes. But that is where it ends: you still do not have to have it (the same orders, the same people) in your life, current time.... just because of a once given vow. You are not breaking the vow, they are, for being different people than you saw as giving that vow (lets leave this there, I am not going into coercion and abuse and what not, about the whole angle.)

(I kinda wanna put an asterisk to this as a question if that makes sense in words / to anyone else lol.)

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Did bad things, maybe (one piece), being a monster, (another piece), deserving / worth, third piece.

Mushed together though. Very mushed. Like mashed potatoes. Can you put a potatoe back together after mashing it?

What if I said some monsters deserve good things?

I am "other". My therapist asked once if I was an alien. I do not see myself like anyone else. I can agree, if anyone else on this forum...but me. Have not been able to move myself out of "other" catigory. A monster that belongs under the jail. The type of monster that people say that about. It's so much more work if we add worth of and deserving of in this. There is so much I have not yet been able to do. This would be one of those. Defining it in simplier terms is...well, simplier. I think, once the grieving starts then these things will start to move on their own. But for now, I need to wrap my brain around "to love and be loved in a basic human need".

Always / Forever (where sworn, where felt, where lived by?)

Not sworn. Felt. Lived by. But not sworn.

people who forced you to do those things.

That would be where Agape or Divin or "god" is. They seem to be all mixed up. Like familal or family is mixed with romantic (as gross as that might sound). As is friendship. How do you unmix them?

Gah, this is so f*cking hard. And I've disocciated as f*ck when worthy came into the picture which is why I'm throwing out one words for questions now. Im giving the first word that comes to mind. Not even sure if I'm making sense at this point.

 

[scout86]

because wasn't what they did love?

You mean the people who used and abused you? No, that wasn't love, no matter what they said or maybe even thought.

Love isn't about using people. It's about accepting them as who they are, and wanting them to be all they can be, for THEM, not you.

At one point, during our divorce, my ex remarked that he "hoped we could stay friends". I said that I didn't think we'd ever actually BEEN friends and that was a big part of the problem. Later, telling this story to someone who really and truly IS my friend, I mentioned that I wondered how my ex defined friendship. My FRIEND blurted out "You'd take a bullet for a friend!" He gets what love is. You'd happily take a bullet for the person, or regret that you didn't or couldn't. It means that you really and truly care about them and want them to be the best version of themselves, for THEM, not for you. You actually find joy in seeing them become who ever it is they are meant to be, even if that means you grow apart.

My mom had an idea what she wanted in a kid. I wasn't it. End of story. She never appreciated me for who I actually am, I was just a disappointment because I wasn't what she wanted. That wasn't love. Regardless of the fact that she threw "love you" around all the time. It was a lie. (But she had some issues of her own and may not have seen it as a lie.)

 

[Abstract]

Those are the words that came to me for each. I suppose each needs to be redefined some how?

I am so so sorry and can see why that is the case. But these "role modals" aren't going to give you insight on them. What about rather imagining that you are the one doing the loving and trying to guess what it would look like. Maybe just one of them? I realise agape may be a step too far.

Something only being appreciated to serve some aspect of our needs and be what ever we want them to be rather than who they really are and want to be (as scout explains so well) isn't love. Do you genuinely care about your dog? For his own wellbeing.

 

[Sideways]

To me I am not worthy of anything good.

This is the crux of it then. That’s core belief stuff.

If re-wording it to “I need...” makes it easier for you to conceptualise, then use the language that helps you the most. Either way, this is about your whole self-concept (am I worthy?) and it will shift. Be patient, you’re doing great:)

 

[Friday]

Sex. Never thought of it any other way. Usually abusive. Def painful. Also dominating (him), submissive (me). And always...just sex.
One sided. Always. A doormat (me).
Disfuctional. Abandoning. Will be abandoned.
Insanity.
Those are the words that came to me for each. I suppose each needs to be redefined some how?

Yep. Because sex is sex, Abuse is abuse, being a doormat is being a doormat, disfunctional is disfunctional, abandonment is abandonment, and insanity is insane.



Attaching the other words? Might as well attach Jeep, watermelons, the straight of Hormuz, the sum of the hypotenuse, a monocle... or various members of the weasel family, or flavors of ice cream... because they’d be as accurate. Sex isn’t rape, being abused isn’t love, used isn’t friendship, etc. You were taught words to use to describe things to protect your abusers. Not because they are the actual definitions.

Something you might consider, is ditching the English words, with the wrong definitions, all together.

Florida has enough Creole & Latin influences you could actually use the French or Spanish equivalents and be understood by most people. But you could also use Swahili or ASL, if you wanted to create more of a difference in your mind. The biggest point would be NOT to attach the English word (with the wrong definition) to the Other Word. Instead, come to know the Other Word as a concept in and of itself. As if it’s a brand new thing.

Like a kangaroo or a platypus were whole new things. Trying to describe them as things Europeans were already familiar with? :hilarious::roflmao: Some very funny images come to mind. Giant bouncing 2 legged cats as big as greyhounds chasing HUGE mice bigger than horses? What? Mice bigger than cats? Both bigger than dogs??? Bouncing CATS? What next? Beaver-duck-fish? Yeah. By trying to use old words, all they created was confusion. But that was all they had, until people came to understand what a marsupial was, and a kangaroo is. Little wallabies & giant reds, not bouncing cats and huge mice.

People had to see the thing itself, and come to know it as it was, to actually wrap their minds around it. Same thing with these new words. Learn them as themselves. Not as what you were taught were synonyms for abuse, pain, fear, craziness, etc.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Instead, come to know the Other Word as a concept in and of itself. As if it’s a brand new thing.

Hmmm! Intresting concept. So, make a new word for the this new thing? Or make a new word and a new definition for this new thing? Either way, intresting concept.

I'm in bed so will have to catch up tomorrow.