Service dog handler lobby

[lostforgottensoul]

I plan to train my next dog alone again @Sideways but have a trainer on call if needed as well as a behavioralist that Chopper was evaulated by. But I appreciate the offer.

I train in a balanced method but I don't really debate training methods as it's much like debating politics and religon to be honest. It's really up to the dog and what works best for it. I follow Leerburg the closest.

It's not counter productive if you divide your time into shorter but more training sessions. So say four 15 min sessions rather then 1 hour session or even three 5 min sessions rather then one 15 min one or five 3 min sessions rather then a 5 min one unless we are talking about PA training specificlly. Then that can go longer depending on how long I am at said specific place but I try to keep it 15 to 20 mins max.

Here's a great video specificlly about that:

I haven't decided on a breed yet but narrowing most into an English lab (the biggest labs that can weigh 100lbs) as a Golden likey won't make the cut for mobility. Even the biggest of Goldens come in a tad too small. But really, haven't narrowed into a specific breed yet.

ETA: What Ed Frawely said in the video "how it fits into the daily life of your dog" is what I was talking about here:

shoved training into every aspect of our life together

 

[Sideways]

as it's much like debating politics and religon to be honest

Not really. It’s more like comparing witchcraft with neuroscience, but whatever.

Just maybe watch the rhetoric. Lots of short training sessions are great. But telling someone they’ll be training so much they can’t even watch tv is not just inaccurate, it’s also seriously against the dog’s welfare!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Just maybe watch the rhetoric. Lots of short training sessions are great. But telling someone they’ll be training so much they can’t even watch tv is not just inaccurate, it’s also seriously against the dog’s welfare!

Please stop telling me what to tell other people when it comes to service dogs. I did not tell them to do that. I said I, ME MYSELF, AND I did that. What I was saying is that it is possible for someone to train a service dog and work fulltime because I DID therefore possible.

Ask for clairification if you are not totally sure what I am saying. I am not telling anyone to do anything but rather how I went about it which might help someone figure out how they can go about it.

 

[Sideways]

What I was saying is that it is possible for someone to train a service dog and work fulltime because I DID therefore possible.

Take a breath. Your post was responding to a person who was unsure if they could work full time and train their own service dog. Your post stated that for you, training meant getting home from work, training until you went to bed, without even having time to watch tv.

That’s counterproductive, and terrible for a dog’s welfare. Add to that? It doesn’t sound like it’s given an accurate picture, since you came back to say that actually, you do lots of short training sessions, not one long training session from hometime to bedtime. What you originally posted? Isn’t accurate based on your subsequent post.

As for using the Leerburg method to train a lab puppy as a service dog? Despite what Leerburb tells you about the training collars (which he sells, profits from, has a vested interest in), they are dangerous to the dog. They are absolutely unnecessary. They also train your dog to vigilant for corrections, pain and punishment, rather than being vigilant to changes in your physiology. Which is what you want a service dog to do.

The concept of dominance in dog training and behaviour has not only been proven to be complete rubbish (and is no longer supported even by the guy who came up with the concept), it runs compelling counter to what a psychiatric service dog is being trained to do.

With respect, using the Leerburg method on a brand new pup is a serious welfare concern. It is cruel. Leerburg makes a lot of money insisting that his prong collar is humane. Studies overwhelmingly show (and have done for a couple of decades now) that +R is quicker, safer, and far more effective. It’s not opion, it’s not politics. Prong collars are no longer legal in many places for precisely that reason.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Your post stated that for you, training meant getting home from work, training until you went to bed, without even having time to watch tv.

Yep, sure did. Short, 1, 2, 3 or 15 min training sessions, back to back with a bit of rest periods between that I used to then research the thing I was training. Watch a training video or 2 or 3 on the thing I was training to see if I needed to adjust something. After a few mins to do that it was back up to train again for another few mins. Then research again while he rested between. It's great to think on your training. What you did good, what you can improve on, and anything you can adjust. Then continue on. THAT'S WHAT I DID AND I AM NOT TELLING OTHERS TO DO THAT!

The rest of your post. I am not debating training methods nor will I promote one over the other or tell someone one is better then the other. That is something they will need to research, learn about, figure out which fits the dog the best and what works for the dog the best. Balanced training is what works best for Chopper and he is never hurt, in pain, or in fear and is highly rewarded.

 

[Sideways]

Some information for people who are interested, outlining why positive reinforcement is now the main training method used by service dog industries, including references to some of the research, and why organisations such as the Guide Dogs now use +R training methods rather than older aversive techniques.

It’s okay if you don’t know how to achieve these results yourself. For both the welfare of your dog, and best outcomes, hunt out a local qualified trainer to get the best outcomes.

As recently as 30 years ago? All trainers were using aversive techniques. Even I used to use aversive techniques. Trainers that have kept up with the science? Have changed the way they train dogs (me included).

Putting the science aside - if there’s a way to train your dog without punishment or making your dog uncomfortable (simply because it hasn’t learnt what you want yet)? Surely, for the welfare and safety of your beloved pup, it’s worth investing in.

Why not to use aversive tehniques

 

[littleoc]

Thank you! That will be extremely helpful

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I would also learn all 4 quandrants of operant conditioning and what all 4 mean. "Positive only" or "force free" uses only 2 of the 4. There are 4 for a reason.

See, like debating politics and religon. One side tears apart the other. Neither good or bad or right or wrong but rather what works best for the dog. Every single dog is different thus what works best for one is not what works best for all. Corrective based training is amazing, if done correctly. Everyone says "no" to their dog (which is why I put "positive only" and "force free" in quotes. No such thing if you ever, even once, say "no" to your dog) whether they realize it or not. Corrective based training methods (done correctly) only teaches the dog what "no" means and you then show them what you want instead. It is very powerful when your dog understands fully the meaning of the word "no".

In any case, I am against pushing a training method on people. I went the positive only route. It didn't get us far done 100% correctly following Donna Hill (a service dog trainer on youtube) and Kikopup (a respected "positive only" trainer on youtube). I have at least, now, 4 thousand youtube videos under my belt. I paid $40 for Kikopup's video. I've done my research on every single behavior and command one can think of. It still didn't get us far. I mistakenly thought that the $40 brands of "e collar" (which I learned is an actual shock collar) is the same as the Mini Educator and was wrong. I then mistakenly thought that all e collars were abusive and went on a rampage to spread that information in my diary here. Where a lovely owner trainer handler of a service dog spoke to me of the differences of a Mini Educator (a muscle stimulation that, at it's lowest level I can feel on my own neck feels like a feather hitting my skin and is most simular to a TENS unit. The other one hurt on a level 1. The Mini Educator feels like a feather hitting my skin on a level 3. Chopper works on a level 8 - 20. On a level 20 it feels like a slight tingle. Hardly abusive. It goes to 100. We work between 8 and 20). This member took time to really explain the difference. Thus how I learned that "positive only" doesn't work for Chopper and balanced method does. Because we went down the "positive only" route to end up learning that doesn't work for us. I have many training tools (like 3 different styles of a head collar) to learn they don't work for us. But they do for many. You use what works for your dog. And what works for Chopper may not work for your dog and visa versa.

Oh, to add

How to correctly fit and use a prong collar.

And I also have heard "you must not have done it correctly if it didn't work". Nope, did it correctly, 100%, by more then just Donna Hill and Kikopup but by at least 10 seperate "positive only" trainers and it just wasn't what Chopper needed. Chopper works best with pressure. Leash pressure from the prong works best because it just distrubutes the leash pressure amoung all of it's points. Thus I'm able to ask Chopper to move to the right or left 2 inches by just simple slight pressure using 2 fingers on the leash. I've had a piece of paper between the leash and the prong and the amount of pressure needed shouldn't break the piece of paper. And you should only need 2 fingers. I wrap the leash around one of the 2 just so the leash doesn't slide as it tends to.

The e collar is also slight pressure. And the body can be pressure too. But he works best with pressure. Your dog maybe different. But, outside, he could of cared less about a piece of turkey in the beginning no matter how slow I went. Obvious different now but in the beginning. Add some e collar pressure (like a slight tingle like a tap on the shoulder) and it was a game changer.

ETA: Oh, i can also call Chopper to me to task when I can't talk with the e collar as it is orginally trained as a recall. So, when so disocciated I can't speak I only need to press a button amd Chopper finds me and tasks with DPT. So, there's that too. And it's what got him to bring and item up to my lap rather then my feet when all other techniques for that failed. And he sees it as a good thing. A correction is always backed up with what I want and a reward. Always!

 

[Sideways]

In any case, I am against pushing a training method on people.

You just did. At great length.

 

[Sideways]

I would also learn all 4 quandrants of operant conditioning and what all 4 mean. "Positive only" or "force free" uses only 2 of the 4. There are 4 for a reason.

You got part of the way there. There are 4 quadrants for a reason. They help us humans differentiate between effective and safe training methods, and unsafe, ineffective and inhumane methods. The 4 quadrants help us humans make sense of our training methods so that we can stick with only those ones that are safe and humane.

How to correctly fit and use a prong collar.

At best, prong collars pinch a dog’s skin, causing pain and submission. There is no need to put a dog in pain to train them. More importantly, they have been outlawed in many places because of the number of throat injuries caused by prong collars. There is no evidence to support the theory behind prong collars, which are intended to ‘mimic’ a mother dog pinching a pup’s skin to ‘correct’ the pup. In fact, a metal pinching collar around a delicate throat bears no resemblance to a mum interacting with their dog whatsoever.

But he works best with pressure.

Actually, you work best with pressure. Done correctly, by a person who speaks Dog, ‘pressure’ (aka ‘pain’) simply isn’t necessary.

Oh, i can also call Chopper to me to task when I can't talk with the e collar as it is orginally trained as a recall.

If not being able to speak is part of your illness, this should be part of the training your dog receives. Without having to be vigilant for an e-collar, a properly trained service dog will know something is up with you long before you do, and if adequately trained? Won’t require pain in order to act.

 

[Sideways]

Corrective based training is amazing, if done correctly.

The thing is - positive reinforcement has been shown to be more ‘amazing’. If done correctly. That’s the whole point. That’s why trainers who are properly qualified have switched.

Everyone says "no" to their dog (which is why I put "positive only" and "force free" in quotes. No such thing if you ever, even once, say "no" to your dog) whether they realize it or not.

This is a common misconception about positive based training methods. It’s just plain silly to think that positive based methods are asking you to stop communicating with your dog. Positive training methods don’t ask the trainer to be some kind of super-positive non-human who never says no. Good grief.

It is very powerful when your dog understands fully the meaning of the word "no".

It’s an even more powerful thing when you realise that actually, there’s no more need to reprimand your dog.

The Mini Educator feels like a feather hitting my skin on a level 3.

This is almost becoming ridiculous. They work because they’re uncomfortable enough that the dog decides doing what you’re asking for is more pleasant. A feather on your skin? Isn’t anything like a ‘feather’ on your dog’s throat.

For service dogs in particular, these training methods interfere with the dog’s natural ability to respond to your physiological changes. Using these? Your dog is less capable of helping you when you really need it, because the dog is taught to react to discomfort, rather than taught to react to physiological changes. Training a service dog, you’re ideally going to encourage the dog to use those natural capacities that the dog has...if you know what you’re doing.

Because we went down the "positive only" route to end up learning that doesn't work for us.

Correction: it didn’t work for you. Which is why we encourage people to hire a qualified trainer, rather than referring people to YouTube Uni. A person who can actually see what you’re doing wrong, and show you how to do it more effectively and safely? Will cut your training time substantially. Less YouTube, more qualified help.

Not everything can be learned by simply watching endless YouTube vids. Good. Grief.

@lostforgottensoul - I’m not fighting with you. I’m simply trying to point out where the information that you’ve been given is outdated. We’ve come a long way in the way we train our dogs, driven partly by wanting more humane ways to train our dogs, but mostly by people who wanted to find safer ways to train dogs and promote the dog’s welfare. There are better ways to train your next pup. Investing in a trainer will pay dividends.

Each time you’ve encountered “It didn’t work for Chopper”, it actually just didn’t work for you. A qualified trainer can help you overcome those hurdles, and get your next service dog PAT ready much quicker than you might think is possible. Done right? Positive-based training methods are quicker, they are safer. You’ve really dug your heals in on this issue, and I’m not sure why. I used to use aversive methods - with proper training (for me, not my dog!), positive based training methods have been a revelation for both me and my dog. I simply don’t need to use aversive techniques if I know what I’m doing.

And my dog absolutely benefits. No pain or discomfort, no fear, no submission (we’re a team, and like any dog? He actually loves working with me). Becore you come back swinging, perhaps just consider that there may be a different way, that you need some help figuring out, that may get you better results.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@Sideways, I am not debating training methods with you. I have no idea why you felt the need to jump into a conversation I was having with someone else to try to tell me that my training methods are wrong. I have given information about all the tools I use and how to properly use them. Believe what you will but your way of training isn't the only correct way of training. I am not here to tell others how they should or should not train their service dogs but rather how I trained. My youtube channel is on my profile. I am very open with everything I do on my channel. You are welcome to find abusive practices if you want but know I do not tolerate hate on there or debate training methods on there.

Otherwise, have a good day!