Service dog handler lobby

[lostforgottensoul]

Persuading the government to provide extra funding is a different matter. It doesn’t matter how much anecdotal evidence we can provide, they want the empirical research before they’ll fund programs like ours under the NDIS.

Oh, I see. Can't there be studies done where the dog alerts while all sorts of tests are being done on the person to see what, BEFORE, the seizure, that the dog is alerting to? Or is that the funding you are speaking of? It seems one has got to give to get the other. If you want to prove it, don't you have to research to do that? Needing proof before research is just stupid. Or, if there is a dog out that, like Colt, that can alert before a seizure happens. Doesn't said alert, BEFORE said seizure prove that for the additional research?

Maybe I just don't get how that stuff works. Which is totally possible and likely.

 

[Sideways]

Or, if there is a dog out that, like Colt, that can alert before a seizure happens.

Yup, so there are dogs like Colt, that have demonstrated that they will alert to a seizure (I’m aware of studies on this for both epilepsy and PNES), where they’ve done empirical studies on those dogs.

That brings us back to where my initial query started. Those studies did not show a link between the neurological changes of the seizure occurring and the dog alerting. Instead, the evidence seemed to show that the dogs were responding to subtle physiological changes that occur often well before the actual seizure. That muddies the waters a lot.

That’s why I was particularly interested in the stat you’ve mentioned a couple of times indicating 20% of dogs can detect seizures, and where that comes from.

Because my understanding of the evidence is that, to date, there is no empirical evidence that any dog can detect those neurological changes, let alone 1 in 5 of them. But if someone has been able to prove that? I’d love to read about it.

There is tonnes of evidence that dogs (most dogs - waaaay more than just 20%) can detect a whole host of physiological changes that might precede seizures. Which means that definitely more than 20% would be suited to be trained as seizure alert dogs, particularly if that training began from the dog’s birth.

This is all coming from my personal campaign to get better funding for people needing assistance dogs under Australia’s NDIS. It’s relatively easy to get the medical and training support required to obtain an Assistance Dog here, compared with other places. But at the moment, individuals have to fund their dog themselves. With more empirical research though, funding should become available from the government (that is, our goal is to get the government to pay for ADs for people living with a disability). And that would be really good news!

 

[joeylittle]

Because my understanding of the evidence is that, to date, there is no empirical evidence that any dog can detect those neurological changes, let alone 1 in 5 of them. But if someone has been able to prove that? I’d love to read about it.

I believe that's correct. There's an oft-referenced 1998 survey with a very small sample group, but it didn't do much more than capture the already-anecdotal concept that some dogs could anticipate a seizure's occurrence.

This is more current - from a 2014 study abstract:

An index observation where a dog was trained to alert to, as well as respond to, human tonic-clonic seizures led to further research and refinement of training techniques. This was followed by anecdotal reports of pet dogs spontaneously anticipating human epileptic seizures. An industry has since developed training Seizure-Alert Dogs (SADs) to give humans warnings of their seizures. In some cases this has been accompanied by a reduction in seizure frequency. SADs may be trained along with the person with epilepsy, responding specifically to that person's seizures, or may be trained separately. Recent sceptical reports of non-epileptic seizures in some people with SADs have cast doubt on dogs' ability to anticipate true epileptic seizures. This may reflect selection criteria for training programmes as well as training methods used, but does not necessarily indicate that SADs might not be able to predict epileptic seizures. Whether the seizures are epileptic or non-epileptic, it is speculated that SADs probably alert to subtle pre-ictal human behaviour changes, but may also be sensitive to heart rate or olfactory cues. As yet, however, no rigorous data exist as to whether seizure prediction by SADS is better than chance, and what false positive and negative prediction rates might be.

Given the many different types of epileptic seizures, and what is known about the bio-chemical, physical, and neurological activity that precedes them...it seems very possible that a seizure-predicting dog could be responding to any one of a number of different factors. I came across this 2017 article on seizure-predicting dogs, and read about this interesting guy:

Researchers have been stumped by how, precisely, some dogs might be able to detect seizures minutes or even hours in advance. “There’s almost no research on it. It’s actually close to zero research so we have no idea,” says Nathaniel Hall, director of The Canine Olfaction Research and Education Laboratory at Texas Tech University. Some say that the dogs might be picking up on electrical signals, such as irregular brain waves, or subtle movements that are unnoticeable by humans. The most common explanation given by canine trainers, though, is that their dogs can smell trace chemical signals released by people who are about to experience a seizure. “The olfactory hypothesis would make sense if biochemical changes were producing an odor that a dog could detect,” Hall says. “As far as I know, that’s no more than a guess.”

@Sideways - the piece I quoted above goes on to say that Dr. Hall has tried to secure funding to study this hypothetical olfactory cue, but so far hasn't managed to get the funds together because of the large expense involved. He might be worth setting a google alert for, in case he gets some funding.

I'd expect that when there's anything empirical proven as a precursor to seizure that one could test against (that isn't an EEG), it won't take long to study and prove how it is that dogs can help predict seizures based on their ability to sense that empirical thing. I hadn't ever realized that there was so much still not understood about predicting seizure onset.

I also read an interesting cautionary tale of a seizure-predicting dog actually leading to the owner having psychogenic seizures. Their faith in their dog's ability to predict their epileptic seizures was so strong, that they started having psychogenic seizures (which they'd never had before), following alerts. I'd guess that sort of thing would be pretty rare.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Sideways]

@joeylittle - I’ve read some of Brown’s work but hadn’t seen that study, so thank you very much for that reference. It seems like they’ve been getting much the same results from these studies for at least 20 years (which is to say, there’s still not much evidence that we can make sense of). And the studies do typically involve ridiculously small samples - often less than 10 dogs. Which isn’t much to hang your hat on either way.

I’m cautious about the olfactory stuff. It makes sense when you consider that the average dog can smell up to 10,000 times better than a human, and even with our paltry sense of smell, humans still detect and react to things like the smell from a pheromone release. It only makes sense that dogs are detecting other hormones and insulin levels etc. But that’s still just educated guessing.

Just based on my own experience body language is definitely critical. Watching small changes in our handlers when they’re learning with their dog, the dogs almost universally respond in some way. And when we intervene and get the handler to consciously change their body language, we tend to get pretty reliable results, even with dogs that have things like anxiety issues going on.

One of our massive hurdles is that La Trobe Uni recently published research that concluded that psychiatric assistance dogs provide nothing more than emotional support. I think someone is preparing a test case to challenge their conclusions in our human rights commission. But like you saod, getting funding to set up better research to respond to those findings is near impossible.

My suspicion is that 100 years from now, humans and our technology will have evolved enough to finally prove to ourselves what we’ve already anecdotally known about dogs for generations!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

That’s why I was particularly interested in the stat you’ve mentioned a couple of times indicating 20% of dogs can detect seizures, and where that comes from

How in the world did you get 20% from:

Only a small percent of dogs can naturally detect seizures and that detection cannot be trained but rather is what a few dogs can naturally do.

?

I don't believe I have ever given a percentage but if I did in the past, I was quoting a website and would have sourced that website on that post. Because, of all things I've read over these 2 yrs, the estimated percentage of dogs that can naturally detect a seizure (or those that claim they can) is much, much, lower. But claims differ depending on what you are reading. Thus why I don't believe I have ever given a percentage unless quoting material that I'd then source.

But, I certianly didn't say 20% here.

 

[Sideways]

@lostforgottensoul - you’re absolutely right. By the time I wrote 20% I had too much in my brain. You stated “only a small percent”. My bad.

20% was the success rate of one of the training organisations training up dogs for epilepsy that I was reading about. Which got stuck in my mind because it’s a remarkably low figure for an organisation training medical alert dogs, which in turn made me wonder how they get enough funding and what the hell they’re doing to have such a low success rate...!!!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

20% was the success rate of one of the training organisations training up dogs for epilepsy that I was reading about. Which got stuck in my mind because it’s a remarkably low figure for an organisation training medical alert dogs, which in turn made me wonder how they get enough funding and what the hell they’re doing to have such a low success rate...!!!

For a program training just medical alert? Yes, very low indeed. Makes you wonder why some get funding and others don't. Goverment! Ugh! If it were seizure alert only, I could understand but medical alert is quite different. Medical alert covers a very wide range of things.

 

[SeanCharles]

The "Plot" Thickens... Even though I am late with Winnie, She is helping in a major way as a Service Dog Candidate that is not yet Public Access active because of my limited Social Interactions which is currently with mom. Given the Seizure I had, which is discussed in another area, I realize so much more than the seizure I experienced in 2013 which also was in December days apart between the 2013 and 2018 seizures. Strangely enough, The seizures occur in a single location and about 5 years apart (big ones!) I probably do have small seizures which are not causing me to lose consciousness.

My thinking in terms of Winnie as a Public Access Service dog would assist me in carrying a pillow and possibly a blanket or possibly a sleeping pad which I could stow for emergencies when I was in public and was seizing before EMS arrived. The other two Tasks would be Mobility and PTSD Mitigation. (I probably need to research this more or possibly need to clarify here.)

 

[Sideways]

carrying a pillow and possibly a blanket or possibly a sleeping pad

How big is Winnie? Is she big enough to have a small yoga mat or something strapped to her harness?

With ‘PTSD mitigation’ - perhaps think about the particular symptoms that give you the most trouble for a function perspective?

If you google “Psychiatric Service Dog Tasks”, you’ll find some really comprehensive lists of things that Winnie can be taught to do to help you, many of which may not have even occurred to you a dog could do.

For example, teaching Winnie to use a Help Phone to contact the ambos if you have a seizure at home when no one is around to call for help - may be useful?

 

[SeanCharles]

@Sideways Great Minds think very much alike! I was thinking blanket and Pillow and was contemplating how she would carry those. She is not exactly small. Winnie is a Husky in a Black Lab Body (Suit) She is mostly a black lab although at times she is an Alpha Female Husky!

I have been researching SD tasks and until I knew what the seizure piece was and their frequency, which for me is 5-6 years apart, I had not considered this task. Emergency Seizure Response, PTSD Tasks, and Mobility! I Got this! :)

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Just learned my service dog has fleas for the first time in 5 yrs. Now what?

So, Chopper has fleas. Found 2 on his head while we were at the therapist in the waiting room. Nothing I could do. I was already there. If I knew he had fleas I wouldn't of brought him. But, never before have I had to deal with fleas. He is a pitbull so luckily has had very short fur and not a lot of it. His entire belly is bald. His thickest fur is at the base of his neck. What gets me is it's cold and he's on flea prevention. Frontline to be exact. He's not even due for another treatment for 2 weeks. So, I am at a loss of how to react. I bought Capstar on Amazon while in the waiting room and it occured to me when I got home that my dying cat also likely has fleas and the 25 pound + one isn't for cats as well so I had to get the under 25 pound one which says it's for cats. I know it will kill all fleas for 24 hrs but not sure about eggs and the entire lifecycle of the flea. There are flea traps by Vector (and at home flea traps, DIY stuff) and I am sure I will need something like that but I just spent $60 on Capstar (oh and $5 on a basic flea comb as i don't have one) but before I drop more money I wanted to come here for advice.

Luckily my house has hardfloors except for the bedrooms. One bedroom is closed but I will treat it as well. His bed is an othopedic one with a removeable cover. I believe there is a non-removeable cover over the foam thing. It's been a while since I have bought it and have yet to remove that cover. The only other thing is the area rug that takes up most of my livingroom and my bed in my bedroom which is basiclly a kingsized dog bed. The recliner I sleep on as well. The fabic isn't like regular fabic but it's not leather either. The couches in the livingroom are leather then there is fabic under the cushions.

I told my therapist first thing. His carpet is office like carpet but I made that known. I was pretty irritated when I came in anyway as I just had found out in the waiting room and he was curious as to why. I take the grooming standards super serious and I was irriated this had happened. I am not sure if Chopper picked them up at Christmas at my dad's or what. I know fleas become immune to Frontline and the like but this is pretty damn suprising to say the least. I had him on Austrialia's verison of Trifecix (Panoramois) and that ended up making him sick eventually so about 8 or so months ago I moved back to Frontline and Heartgard. I buy it off of a website from Austrialia, Equine Mega Store, because they don't have the law that the dog has to test negitive to get heartworm prevention like the US does and I started doing that because when I got Chopper he had just seen a vet and just tested negitive for heatworm and I didn't want to pay yet another vet office visit and pay for the test again when he had just tested negitive. I did get him tested again after hurricane Irma, getting oddly infested with mosquitoes and missing a month of heatworm prevention (tested negitive) but I continued getting it from the site since I had some and since I was already getting it from there.

I just bought Frontline last month. So, I am not even sure if I should try another brand and which to try if I do. Or to try Panoramais again, even though it was making him sick at the end and he was throwing it up, we did use it successfully for about 2 yrs. It just worries me as not only is he throwing up the flea prevention but the heartworm prevention as well. We live in Florida but in the 5 yrs I have owned him, he has never once had fleas. He also has allergies so it's hard to know why he is scratching. I moved him from Benedryl (which wr continued per the vet's advice) to Zyertic (children's, though he is 80lbs, and can handle adult strength, children's seems to work ok) about 4 months ago. It is working much better. He is allergic to grass of all things.

He is also mostly white, which helps. Very short fur, which helps. And several areas bald, which helps. But, I wanted some advise here on how to move foward after he and the cat is given the capstar. That's about as much details as I can think of. He won't be worked until I know for sure he is flea free. Oh, I was also using the Ostar oatmeal flea shampoo and stopped it about a year ago. He just had a bath 2 days ago and too many baths is horrible for his skin but I still have that shampoo and Dawn if needed. Though I am sure Dawn will dry out his skin horriblly. I have it if need. But HELP!

 

[Sideways]

It’s always possible that he picked them up on the way to your T’s office...or even at your T’s office?

We have lots of different brands of flea treatments here because the second your dog comes off flea treatment they’re going to get infested. Do you have any hydrobaths nearby that include a flea wash? They’re great. Definitely loads of baths is going to cause problems for his skin, totally get that.

I’d probably try out cycling through the flea treatment that you’ using. Use one brand for 6 months, then flick over to a different brand for 6 months then back again? You can also double up your protection if you’re using a heartworm treatment that includes flea protection (some do, some don’t).

Reassure yourself that this isn’t a major infestation by just doing a routine check each day at home. Fleas are totally treatable, and if he’s on an effective treatment, they won’t be able to breed, so it won’t be a long term thing.

You’re doing all the right things. Sometimes a flea jumps onto our dog. Don’t panic, it just happens sometimes.