Fantasies about falling out with my therapist

[barefoot]

My last therapy session was a bit of a wash out. I generally quite look forward to going and I felt fine about going there last week, but then I got in the room and just felt flat and disengaged and just meh...I didn’t really want to be there and didn’t know what to say...it just felt pointless...

The few sessions before that had been good. It’s felt like I was making some shifts and inching forwards. And things with my T felt good and easy and it felt like we were quite...close. Not in an inappropriate, unboundaried way. I just mean, we have felt...connected...and she has been kind and supportive...and it’s just been feeling easier to talk to her and I’ve felt less anxious in the therapy room...and I suppose it has felt comforting being in her presence lately.

And now I am freaking out and driving myself nuts about it!

It isn’t a new thing. It’s happened a few times...the pattern seems to be: she’s kind, I feel supported, I feel safe with her and more relaxed, she feels close...and then I start to feel panicky and angry with her and then I look for things to feel annoyed with her about to create some distance.

Last time it happened, I found myself getting really caught up in fantasies about firing her. It went on for weeks and it took up a huge about of time and head space. I was literally having these thoughts for hours and it was causing me a lot of stress and distress. And I felt very ashamed of the fact that I was doing it, because it felt really child-ish and irrational. In the end, I felt so worn down by it that I just sort of blurted it out to her during a session, which felt mortifying but we had a chat about it...and then it all just magically stopped! As if telling her had completely taken its power away and the ruminations and the feelings that went along with them just vanished. Magic!

A couple of weeks ago, a similar thing started again. I’ve found myself getting really lost in fantasies about her again...this time, I haven’t quite been getting to the point of firing her in them but the fantasies are all about us arguing...I am angry with her and telling her all the reasons why and she’s kind of looking baffled and trying to reassure me that I’ve misunderstood (so, in the fantasies, she’s not angry and arguing with me...I’m the only one being pissy) but I’m not interested and I won’t listen and I keep insisting that x, y and z and then I get up and leave.

Like before, I can get caught up in these daydreams for ages. It’s generally the last thing I think about before I go to sleep and the first thing I think about when I wake up. It’s ridiculous but I just can’t seem to get a handle on it and stop it.

When I’m in the moment of the fantasy, it feels sort of exhilarating and calming at the same time. It’s enjoyable...but there is also something stressful and unpleasant about it too when I come out of the fantasy because I just want to feel OK about her/us and not have any extreme thoughts or feelings. I just want to feel neutral about her.

Right at the end of our wash out session last week, I blurted out that I was doing this again. She said that when I have these fantasies, I’m thinking about wanting to “murder the relationship” so the interesting thing for us to look at is what would be the benefit to me of murdering the relationship. Or, what would murdering the relationship protect.

We have been talking lately about me moving toward more processing...about childhood trauma and my mum’s recent death...talking about how I have moved from dissociation to repressing feelings and now wanting to take a step forward to process more.

So, I suppose, I see the fantasies as perhaps:
- an illustration of my general fear of intimacy...and, more specifically, the push/pull of the therapeutic relationship, which I have struggled with from the get go.
- a way of taking control/feeling in control
- perhaps “murdering the relationship” protects me from having to go near difficult feelings, which would come up if I was going to go ahead and process traumatic experiences.

We only had a few minutes to talk about it so didn’t get into it a whole lot. And she was very nice about it and took it in her stride and I think it was the right thing to do to tell her. But I had really hoped that putting it out there with her would make it stop like it did before. But it hasn’t. If anything, it has intensified. It’s taking up so much time and headspace and I’m just getting sucked into these thoughts, which is taking me away from other stuff I need to be focusing on and doing.

I am beyond frustrated with myself that this pattern is repeating again.

I am annoyed with myself that every time I seem to be pushing on and making some progress, I seem to sabotage myself.

I feel mortified that I’m acting like a child.

I hate how desperate I feel.

I hate myself for being such a coward.

I feel so stupid that I can’t stop the thoughts/feelings. If I can notice what’s happening, recognise it’s a pattern and understand some of the deeper reasons underneath the fantasies, why can’t I make them stop?!

We were supposed to be having a month long break because I had ended up with some work clashes with our session times. So, thinking on it, maybe that was partly why I felt a bit meh last session. However, she then emailed about the possibility of doing evening sessions during that time if that would fit around work, so we managed to arrange a couple of dates. So, I’m now seeing her next week instead of waiting til the end of the month.

Does anyone have any advice about how I can get this under control? I want to be able to stop the fantasies/ruminations/intrusive thoughts because they are not useful. How do I get things back on track? I have no idea what I’m going to say to her next week.

 

[grit]

I have had similar thoughts and feelings about my therapists and unlike you, I acted on them couple times and left the therapy but at end I realized what I was doing. I do not recommend that!

for me it was learning more about how I relate or connect with others is based on more trauma bonding than actual and lighter (healthier) bonding – like two people just connecting without any deep issue to solve or talk or share. I never learned what is loving a person who loves me back. I do not do love. I act love. My staying and keeping the therapy relationship, I am acting but not giving or doing love toward her. She has a purpose for me to gain something and that is it. To me this is parallel to my mom’s relationship. It is kind of survival way of living. I acted love toward my mother because I needed her but given another opportunity, I would probably also leave her like I did with the therapists…except that would be impossible for a child.

PS. I am noticing also how this plays out in my marriage in very much lower anxiety ridden but the residue is there. The doing and acting are a but integrated but for sure now I can see where I hold off sometimes.

I think if you re-read your post when you are out of this fog, you will see the answers or at least strong hints.

 

[Friday]

Oooooh the PTSD-Tango ?? ...:wtf:... Push-Pull, Intense-Avoid, Get Close - Back Away, 2FWD-1Back, come here - go away, love you - hate you (or feel nothing), all or nothing, on-off, hot-cold ... It may be completely normal, but that doesn’t mean it’s still not completely frustrating. Or can be.

Basically? I’ve learned to account for it, but ignore it.

Account for it meaning I build in time to recover gracefully (read: so other people don’t notice, get concerned, get hurt, etc // AND I have the fewest regrets) ... because

a- I don’t like being an asshole. I’m good at it, sure, but I don’t like it.
b- it’s hard enough managing this high wire balancing act without people throwing things at me because they’re mad or trying to “help” by bouncing the wire -You’ll go faster!- Nooooo, I’ll fall OFF. :facepalm: Stop it.
c- I’ve nuked my life enough to know that feelings aren’t facts. I may feel like this is forever (tops, 6 months before “it” passes & I’m back to baseline and want my life back - and far more likely it’ll just be hours, days, or weeks if I’m actively sorting shit.).

This is one of my ‘predictable is preventable’ things. I can’t prevent the pattern from happening (Well. I can to a degree. But assuming I wasn’t able to, or to enough of a degree?) but I CAN prevent or limit the effects/consequences of that pattern.

 

[Friday]

When I’m in the moment of the fantasy, it feels sort of exhilarating and calming at the same time. It’s enjoyable...

:sneaky:

So, like most of us, you probably have 1001 coping mechanisms for various things, right? Some healthy some not, some big some small, but probably rather a lot of them, yes?

I would lay serious money on the table that the reason your brain chose THIS coping mechanism is that you’ve been getting these needs met in therapy -minimally, or one meh :meh: session wouldn’t send you so far into deficit- but met all the same.

Sounds like maaaaaybe it’s time to add some excitement into your life? :D Some enjoyable things? Some calming things? And -because she’s a person and part of this pattern is the connection between you two- some more relationships? Or more time in existing relationships?

Not just one of those things, mind, but ALL of them. Exhilarating, enjoyable, calming, & connecting.

They don’t all have to come from a single source, and probably better that they don’t anyway... but one of the tricks that I’ve learned is to look at what the BS coping mechanism is giving me, and then seek those things out in ways I actually want in my life.

***
So it’s a bit of a 2 pronged approach.

1 Account for the pattern & circumvent
2 Look at what I’m getting out of the coping mechanism I’m using, and source it elsewhere

 

[susannahsays]

I can relate. I often have the urge to "murder the relationship." I think I want to control the therapist's behavior towards me and make it resemble something I am used to. I don't understand or know what to do with someone who acts like she does and it's confusing.

Sometimes I just fantasize, and sometimes I actually act out by doing/saying something provocative or inflammatory. For me, I don't fantasize about the therapist actually reacting in a particular way... actually, no, that's not completely true. While my fantasies don't involve elaborate imaginings of her reactions, I think they involve her punishing me somehow. But I don't think it involves her being angry, which I know seems kind of weird if she's punishing me. Right? I don't know. The things I fantasize doing are distinctly childish. For example, I like the idea of putting salt in her water to make it taste bad, tp'ing her office, or putting a whoopie cushion in her chair. I can picture myself cackling with fiendish delight doing such things, as if I'm about 5 years old.

We've talked about how I enjoy being bad and how I get a thrill out of it, though not specifically about my behavior in relation to her. She obviously knows that I act out in therapy, but I sometimes get the impression that she thinks I am just like that in general. She's not the only one I have this sort of weird dynamic with, but it's not the default.

As for what's helpful... I wonder why you feel that these fantasies need to be controlled. I understand you're feeling some distress from them, but it sounds to me as if that's a result of judging yourself for your feelings.

I have stopped acting out as often as I used to, but I'm not really sure what it was that caused that, and I still fantasize. I think maybe it is all about testing the therapist, which worries me. I do notice that when I actually act out, after my initial glee has worn off, I become fearful that the therapist will be mad at me. We have started taking more about my impulse to do bad things, though, so hopefully that will be helpful.

 

[ButterflyBean]

@barefoot, first, this thread makes me think of @Abstract, @Justmehere, @joeylittle, and @scout86 for some reason...? Maybe similar experiences/conversations throughout each member’s therapeutic journey? I’m sure I’m forgetting so many others, but my point is that you are not alone in this albeit your conflicting feelings are extremely understandable and valid.

As for what you might say to your therapist next week, could you start with something like, “I know that I brought up a pattern that keeps repeating at the end of our last session, and we didn’t have a lot of time to talk about my fantasies, the push/pull I’m feeling etc. So, I am wondering if we could pick up there today, but I don’t know where to start or what else to say“. Does that sound accurate/feel right to you? Your T might follow that up with something along the lines of whether or not you have thought anymore about what “murdering the relationship“ means/looks like and whatever goes with that. Since you feel like telling her was the right thing to do, which by the way, I completely agree with, I think the conversation is worth having and exploring especially since it is fresh in your mind and causing significant distress. Please let us know how things unfold. I think you have great self-awareness and insight, which is a great place to start!

 

[barefoot]

@Friday yes, the PTSD tango - which you describe very well - can be confusing, frustrating and exhausting. It certainly feels that way for me at the moment.

I CAN prevent or limit the effects/consequences of that pattern.

Yes...I’m not actually going to start an argument with her or say mean things to her. Because I don’t actually want the fantasy in real life.

I guess the effects/consequences of the fantasy are only on me. I’m the one feeling stressed about it.
I’m the one getting distracted by the thoughts all the time. It’s possible that me feeling meh last session was because of these thoughts...that even though I’m not actually arguing with her, me knowing I’m having these fantasies - and enjoying them in the moment - perhaps makes me put up a bit of a wall and create a bit of distance between us in sessions...

or one meh :meh: session wouldn’t send you so far into deficit

The meh session last week isn’t what triggered these fantasies.
I had already been getting caught up in them before that, hence why I told her about the thoughts last session. Perhaps it was partly a meh session as I knew deep down I should tell her about the fantasies and the prospect of that was weighing fairly heavily....

The sessions that preceded the fantasies starting were good and purposeful. Lots of talk about moving to processing, lots of championing from her, her saying about me being with my feelings more and her witnessing me...I think the issue feels more that she feels too close and I am panicking rather than we have felt close and then we had a meh session and now I’m feeling angry with her...

Sounds like maaaaaybe it’s time to add some excitement into your life? :D

Ooh...I don’t really do excitement! I don’t feel it very often and don’t really like it when I do. It feels too much like panic!

And on the relationship front...I don’t know...I have several good relationships. My wife, some good friends...It’s not that my T is my only good connection/relationship or the only source of support. I suppose I sometimes find her comforting to be around/think about in a way that I don’t feel about anyone else...but I think that’s because she’s just patient and accepting and doesn’t want/expect anything from me...because she’s my T and that’s the nature of that relationship...she’s not invested in the way other people are and I don’t have to meet any of her needs.

So, I have other relationships and other stuff - work-wise and socially etc - going on in my life. Which is why I don’t really get why these thoughts about her seem to have become so all encompassing.

Look at what I’m getting out of the coping mechanism I’m using, and source it elsewhere

 

[barefoot]

I wonder why you feel that these fantasies need to be controlled

Really it’s because it’s causing distress and taking up so much time. I can get sucked into these fantasies for ages - hours sometimes . It’s taking up a lot of time, energy and focus...and taking me away from other things I should be focusing on/doing. I just get caught in the ruminations before I really know what’s happening...they seem to sneak up on me and I just get so lost in it and the next thing I know, I’m coming out of the fantasy (almost like waking up), loads of time has passed and I’m feeling really stressed out!

 

[barefoot]

@ButterflyBean Yes, I could say something like you suggested. I just don’t really know what I’d be saying it for. I just want it to stop ?

 

[ButterflyBean]

@barefoot I hear you, and wanting/needing the thoughts to stop is completely understandable! That is precisely why you would be saying something like what I suggested to your therapist; so that she can help you dissect the fantasies, figure out what you need from them or what you are avoiding, and figure out alternative ways to achieve the positive goal.

I also completely get and relate to the fear of being too close and wanting to create distance. I know you’re not really angry at your T...is it possible that you’re feeling angry or something similar about/at having the actual fear itself, and it’s turning into fantasies about your T as a result? Just a thought… Feel free to refute, clarify and/or disregard as appropriate! :)

If you don’t know what else to say about the fantasies/distressing thoughts, could you start with the fact that being too close and wanting to create distance is part of the repeat pattern that’s bothering you; start there, see what comes up about the fantasies, and let the conversation lead itself? This stuff could be called transference if we’re being technical, and I know it can be incredibly hard to deal with. I don’t think the uncomfortable feelings ever stop. If/when they do, the relationship may no longer be healthy and/or effective; however, maybe instead of thinking in terms of “I want the thoughts and distressing thoughts to stop“, maybe you can look at it as “I want the distress from these thoughts and fantasies to become manageable so I can function comfortably, and I need help learning how to manage them”. What do you think?

 

[scout86]

I blurted out that I was doing this again.

Well done! Stop with the beating yourself up because you could have/should have done something "better". What you did there was really really hard. Which is why you waited till the last possible second. I suspect it also felt, on some level, really really dangerous. (It might not actually BE literally dangerous.) The reason you don't have this phenomenon totally handled yet is because it's part of the PTSD and,therefore, part of the problem. (And now you've got me thinking about how hypocritical it is to say this stuff to other people while avoiding similar things myself. LOL I might have to give some more thought to the email I'd decided not to send to my T :) )

 

[barefoot]

is it possible that you’re feeling angry or something similar about/at having the actual fear itself, and it’s turning into fantasies about your T as a result?

I suppose anything is possible...I can think of a few reasons why it could be happening now...and I do feel angry with myself at not being better at this stuff by now, so maybe...

could you start with the fact that being too close and wanting to create distance is part of the repeat pattern

I did say this last session. That we felt - and I took ages to finish the sentence because I could barely then say the word - close...and then I sort of grimaced. And she said very brightly, we are close. And I felt uncomfortable and said, well, we are and we aren’t... And she insisted, no, we are and went on to talk about that but I can’t remember what she said so I suspect I stopped listening and then talked over her to say about something else... ? Just her saying that we’re close made me feel angry. But, you know, what would I rather her have said?! No, we’re not close at all and I don’t give a shit?!

We have touched on this before...my struggle with the push/pull of the relationship, my simultaneous longing for and fear of intimacy, her feeling too close and me wanting to run...it just feels like I’m/we’re going round in circles on this stuff.

“I want the distress from these thoughts and fantasies to become manageable so I can function comfortably, and I need help learning how to manage them”

Any tips about how to do this from anyone here?

What you did there was really really hard. Which is why you waited till the last possible second.

Yes, it was hard. And, you’re right...that’s possibly why it was largely a nothing, meh session until the end because I was building up to getting this hard thing out...

I suspect it also felt, on some level, really really dangerous.

Yes...it felt dangerous/scary and also shameful.

The reason you don't have this phenomenon totally handled yet is because it's part of the PTSD and,therefore, part of the problem.

I think I needed to read this, thanks.

I might have to give some more thought to the email I'd decided not to send to my T :)

Did you send it?? ?