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News Us politics - read first post before comment

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It is being tried in a court. The chief Supreme Court justice is the judge, the senate the jury. If the matter was up to being moved out of congress, it could be a court of judges all appointed by the President. I rather it stay in Congress in part because that doesn’t eliminate the President also being tried in a court of law. Why isn’t that happening? One side will day because there is no crime and the other side will point out the DOJ is stacked with his/her appointments. The prosecutors would all be those appointed by the president. Trump may still be tried in a court of law one day. I don’t believe Congress can throw him in jail, only remove him from office.

Federal trials take many years. The people need a quicker way if/when the President ever breaks the law. That’s why we have the option of impeachment in Congress.

Is it a partisan sh*t show right now? Yep. Pretty pointless one at that. All the current mess will do is stir up the base on both sides. Most Americans won’t change their minds based on any of it. They are more focused on their day to day reality and putting food on the table.

Poll: Americans Overwhelmingly Say Impeachment Hearings Won't Change Their Minds

Inside the Beltway: Polls show support for impeachment now ‘under water’
 
he is, apparently, above the law.
Yes, that is pretty much the whole of the president's defense.

The fact that he'll be acquitted means it's basically true and he can do anything he likes. It could mean the end of the rule of law in this country. Or it could just mean Trump is above the law but no future presidents will be. It probably depends on the makeup of Congress in the future. We'll see.
 
the senate the jury.
It irks me that the word 'jury' is being used in this process at all. The concept of an independent jury of your peers couldn't be further from what the senate actually is - they're about as prejudiced as it gets when it comes to finding for or against the President.

Pretty pointless one at that
I'd go further - the more that these sorts of pointless, prejudiced game plays occur, the more they make a mockery of the democratic ideals that the institution is intended to represent.

Putting on the 'show' of a trial, with a foregone conclusion, where the facts and the law have become almost completely irrelevant, does an incredible amount of damage to the notion of democracy. People will (justifiably) increasingly lose faith in both their elected government, and democracy as an ideal/concept, the more frequently it engages in these sorts of displays. It's incredibly sad to watch it unfold.
 
It irks me that the word 'jury' is being used in this process at all. The concept of an independent jury of your peers couldn't be further from what the senate actually is - they're about as prejudiced as it gets when it comes to finding for or against the President
We have that, here, though. Different types of juries for different courts.

In courts martial, for example, IF there’s a jury (it’s more common not to), they’re made up of 3, 5, or 12 -instead of 12 + 2 alternates in a civilian jury- active duty service personnel... And only a 2/3s -not unanimous- vote is required, unless it’s a mandatory death penalty case (which doesn’t exist in civilian court, but the UCMJ has crimes that mandate the death penalty if convicted). Further, the jury composition is determined by the rank of the accused. Officers can only be heard by officers, warrant officers only by officers and warrant officers, and enlisted by officers, warrant officers, and -by request only- enlisted members... but in all cases each juror must be senior or equal in rank to the accused.

Our constitution, meanwhile, (Article II Sect 4) gives the House of Reps sole power to impeach, and names the Senate the sole court for impeachment trials with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presiding, and THEN leaves the actual sentencing of Individual crimes that warranted the impeachment (fines, prison sentences, etc.) to civilian civil and criminal courts.

We also have special juries for certain closed federal courts, specifically made up of experts in the field(s), for crimes that involve matters of national security... and a few other examples.

While the 12+2 randomly selected jury is standard for most civil, criminal, & federal courts... it’s just not the only jury system that our laws allow for, and in some cases, that the law demands. Like for impeachment trials, demanding the Senate as the jury.
 
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The concept of an independent jury of your peers couldn't be further from what the senate actually is - they're about as prejudiced as it gets when it comes to finding for or against the President.
It wasn't meant to be like that, but the Founding Fathers never foresaw a two-party system.
the more they make a mockery of the democratic ideals
Yep. If one party is less interested in the rule of law and more interested in amassing power, impeachment doesn't work.

What Nixon did was far less corrupt than what our current president is (allegedly) doing, but both parties in Congress could work together in those days and actually cared about the rule of law.
 
While the 12+2 randomly selected jury is standard for most civil, criminal, & federal courts... it’s just not the only jury system that our laws allow for,
Absolutely - the original concept of a jury has evolved in most places, and dispensed with entirely where it has become either redundant, or where it isn't possible to put together a jury that has both actual and perceived impartiality.

And (IMO), the processes (like juries) of natural justice, the rule of law and democracy all rightfully and necessarily evolve where that is necessary for protecting the ideals themselves.

And that's kind of the point. The senate can't be a jury, by any stretch of the imagination, in this situation. Every single Senator has a very vested interest in which way to vote, such that we knew the outcome even before the articles of impeachment had been finalised.

My issue is that this impeachment is (unnecessarily) doing even more damage to a democratic system that is already suffering under the weight of public resentments.

Supporters on both sides now routinely come to policy conversations with an assumption of the other being corrupt, and that there is no reliably independent press to be informed by any more.

Democracy in the US appears (from the outside looking in) to be devolving into hysteria and conspiracy theories on both sides. And it's uncomfortable to watch.
 
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Well, technically, a conspiracy is only a behind-closed-door deal, so, it's not like they don't happen. The "Russia hoax" has been demostrated to be an actual, bona fida conspiracy. Carter Page was lied about, in order to justify the "Spygate" FISA warrant, beginning the whole "Mueller Report;, expensive, fiasco and waste of taxpayers money. This is now proven fact. So, no, not just a conspiracy "theory", actually, conspiracy fact.
 
Did you know the US actually used to have two Thanksgivings? One was basically considered to be a Democrat thanksgiving and another, a Republican one.

When FDR moved Thanksgiving: the presidential power grab that tore a nation apart

We also had a civil war that was essentially the two parties (or red and blue states) going after each other over the party platform positions on an issue. (An incredibly important one.)

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams used to go after each other endlessly.

The current situation? Not good, but not the worst most divided time in American history. It’s part of being a democratic republic of a diverse group of people that there will be some conflict at times. I think the 2 party system will be our downfall, but I also think we are far from our worst days as a nation.
 
Some stuff jumped out at me, just contextual information.
It would be historic... if a sitting President would be not only impeached, but removed from office and "banned forever from running for office again" for what essentially amounts for a policy dispute...there is not historic or lawful/legal precedent for this. Zip, zero, zilch, nada... none.
Historic, yes. It's never happened. And yes, no lawful/legal precedent - but useful to context that this is because (a) it's never happened, and (b) impeachment trials are not "trials" (in a rule-of-law sense), and to be 'convicted' only means to be impeached. Constitutional law is not the same as rule of law. It's checks-and-balances, not prosecution. But people don't tend to remember that, and we're in such partisan times, it's hard to imagine people being able to see it as anything other than a criminal prosecution, a trial in a court of law - which, it isn't.
It is being tried in a court. The chief Supreme Court justice is the judge, the senate the jury.
Worth remembering, it's not a criminal trial. Not a criminal proceeding. Governance trial, not court-of-law trial. The senate isn't a jury - though that's an analogy that many people often make. The senate isn't bound by any code of conduct that a jury would be bound by, and they don't do what juries do. They are just hearing, considering, and voting - which is what they do all the time. I think the difference is, it's very funhouse-mirror-like, because it's the government voting on itself. But that's what leads us to want to simplify the equation into chief justice=judge, senate=jury, and president=on trial. That's just not what's actually happening.
It irks me that the word 'jury' is being used in this process at all. The concept of an independent jury of your peers couldn't be further from what the senate actually is - they're about as prejudiced as it gets when it comes to finding for or against the President.
Correct - because the analogy to a jury is literally comparing apples to oranges. There is no jury in a senate impeachment proceeding. There is a vote, and the 2/3 majority will "win". It's also not a bench trial, the "judge" is overseeing and enforcing whatever set of procedural elements the senate has adopted, but that's it -the judge has no other enforceable powers. Those would kick in, theoretically, were a president to "appeal" the impeachment. Then there would be a big debate about this, but it would most likely go to the supreme court to decide. But that's two big hypotheticals, the US has never ever had to do that.

No surprise to say - impeachment proceedings being infrequent means, there's not a lot of precedent, period. Constitution just leaves us with "it's the Senate's job to try (test and weigh) the evidence, and vote. They can decide to go about that however they see fit." That's a slight oversimplification, because there have been some precedents that have developed over time - but really, not many at all. I think there's four. I'd need to look.

People might appreciate this: a fairly readable overview of the four main schools of thought, re: interpretation of the Constitution (concerning impeachment, specifically).
Putting on the 'show' of a trial, with a foregone conclusion, where the facts and the law have become almost completely irrelevant, does an incredible amount of damage to the notion of democracy.
Yeah...again, though, "law" is a tricky thing to apply, since it's not a criminal trial. More like, "ethics", or "commonly held beliefs about right and wrong" - and those are somewhat codified into law(s), which then may or may not inform constitutional interpretation....depending on one's beliefs about the fallibility or rightness of the US Constitution.

Many legal scholars would agree 100% with you on the inherent problems with the impeachment system. Back when the framers "framed" shit, there was a lot they did not anticipate. The inflexibility inherent in a a two-party system is a big piece of that puzzle, but not the only piece.
 
So, no, not just a conspiracy "theory", actually, conspiracy fact.
Mums, you seem to be responding to (and disagreeing with) the content of my post. And I'd like to be able to offer you a meaningful response.

But apart from substantiating my point about existing public resentments, I can't make any link whatsoever between the issues you've referred to, and the issues I was discussing regarding the impeachment itself (which is about the content of a single phone call, and alleged misuse of foreign aid - and that is all) or the impeachment process.

This inability to distinguish issues, because of existing resentments, subtantiates my point exactly. The impeachment process seems to be feeding those resentments, and the inherent mistrust of the democratic system that they represent.
 
@joeylittle, my only difference in your excellent post is at the end where you say ‘law is a tricky thing to apply as it’s not a criminal trial’. Criminal law is only one aspect of law. Lawyers can work in governmental or constitutional law- it doesn’t make it trickier to apply the law because it’s not criminal law. It can be rather ‘academic’ but it does have application.
 
‘law is a tricky thing to apply as it’s not a criminal trial’. Criminal law is only one aspect of law. Lawyers can work in governmental or constitutional law- it doesn’t make it trickier to apply the law because it’s not criminal law. It can be rather ‘academic’ but it does have application.
Agree, and well-put. My point was only that the average public is more familiar with criminal and civil law (what I'm referring to as "rule-of-law"), than they are with constitutional law. As a populace, we don't interact with constitutional law nearly as much.

So, I'd have been better to say that. That when most people say "law", they are thinking of criminal and civil law, as opposed to the laws about how to make those laws (ie, constitutional law, extreme oversimplification)
 
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