virtuous victimhood correlated with dark triad personality

[PreciousChild]

Has anyone read the recent research that demonstrates that a person signalling virtuous victimhood is an indicator of the dark triad personality - narcissism, machiavellianism, and psychopathy? Very interestingly, the person who identifies as virtuous and victim is more likely to cheat in a game, deceive, and do things to acquire more resources (they feel entitled). There is a negative correlation between victimhood and honesty and humility. In other words, the person identifying himself as victim has a high likelihood to not be honest and humble.

"Dark" Personalities Are More Likely to Signal Victimhood

Are people with "dark" personality traits more likely to signal virtue and victimhood? New research suggests an answer.

www.psychologytoday.com

I've been exploring the darker sides of cptsd these days and would be interested in your thoughts.

 

[internal]

in the study they mention that for the victim signaling portion they recruited people from mturk to answer survey questions. i would take this more seriously if they studied people in a face to face environment (actual cluster b patients vs neurotypical patients)

the surveys people usually do them with out paying attention and what not (i use to do them and you never ever pay attention.) i agree that people who are npd/aspd are more likely to claim the victim (i am cluster b and i do this as well periodically) along with other metheds of manipulation.

but in this instence it looks like correlation is unequal to causation.

 

[Movingforward10]

I'm a big fat 'No' on this one.

Mainly because, while there is a throw away comment about gay men and certain superheros (wtaf?), As a lesbian I don't exist in this? Anyways.
.and then the rest of it just I got to scream No.

When you say you are exploring the darker side of c ptsd, what do you mean?.
(There is a light side?!)

 

[PreciousChild]

I just wanted to mention that in the peer-reviewed academic article, the authors acknowledge that there is true victimization in reality and they don't want to deny the effects of being victimized. But their study is about those folks who persist in an identification of victimhood who "label themselves as victims, and demand compensation for their pain." These folks bend the rules in their favor and feel entitled to extract resources from others.

@grief, did you read the bit about what the subjects reported after interacting with the intern? That seems pretty sound.

@Movingforward10, a lot of the literature and podcasts I've heard on narcissism and psychology in general tend to take the cis, heterosexual perspective in regards to gender relations. I do think they make these broad-stroke claims that could never really fit everyone. I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know how justified they are in doing this. It does seem to me highly interpretative and culturally dependent.

What I mean is that I think the pain and suffering of the cptsd person can sometimes be so overwhelming that it can inure us to considering and attending to almost everything and everyone else.

 

[Mee]

Interesting. I’d say I’m honest, not humble, and probably score high in victim hood? I have recurring fear - like you @Precious child , of narcissism- or there being ‘something wrong with me’. My T feels that I am not narcissistic ( but have self interested elements like everyone) and that I have trauma and neglect wrong with me - but no personality disorder .

Personally I have a difficulty with how we use the word victim. I use the word about myself in the ‘legal’ context because it’s the only way I can get my head around it. The castigation of the literal use of the word victim I feel perpetuates the cultural bias being left with a victim not the perpetrator and the society that accepts that. The word ‘victim’ doesn’t necessarily imply to me ‘hapless’ or ‘not trying’ it’s just an adjective for someone who experienced something. I think filling @fridays thread where semantics was really relevant while I truly understand that I. Mental health and colloquially words are used differently that in itself becomes indicative of how we view them - and those groups of people.

 

[internal]

did you read the bit about what the subjects reported after interacting with the intern? That seems pretty sound.

in the absence of true cluster b patients vs nt patients which already this study is flimsy at best combined with the mturk thing and the unrepentant heteronormative bullshit i am going to go ahead and say this study is a lot of bunk.

using terms like dark triad is not clinically signifent anyway. while i understand what the study is attempting to say they executed it so poorly and without a well understood purpose (is this cluster b or everyone or is everyone who does this cluster b or whatever).

however there is an interesting correlation between deficits in empethy and severe cptsd. i have encountered a few individuals like this where their affective empethy is totally turned off due to the extensive emotional numbing.

this is entirely anecdotal though.

 

[Mee]

however there is an interesting correlation between deficits in empethy and severe cptsd. i have encountered a few individuals like this where their affective empethy is totally turned off due to the extensive emotional numbing.

this is entirely anecdotal though.

that’s interesting. I had always felt myself not naturally empathetic but T thinks I am empathetic to my detriment.
I guess I don’t know what a ‘normal’ amount of empathy is. I also think I approach empathy ‘intellectually’ rather than through a natural ‘feeling’ .

 

[internal]

I also think I approach empathy ‘intellectually’ rather than through a natural ‘feeling’ .

my friend who i speak of a little on my diary is on the cusp of aspd and cptsd and it's odd that we go back and forth. he has the criminal behavior manipulation lying superficial charm and all that. he also has a diagnosis of ddnos. so he is sometimes more like that then not.

but for him he describes being prosocial (community oriented helpful supportive responsive non violent) as logical. he desires to be prosocial in his words "its easier and you get more out of positive interactions and you fit in better and have more opportunities." so he does struggle with sometimes he will be sarcastic or mock people and ill tell him that's hurtful and he goes oh whoops-

like it's so odd! but in his case his trauma was extreme, he participated in armed violence as a child. and that stuff will f*ck your empethy up. now it's entirely not likely he meets the current diagnostic criteria (as i don't for borderline but i obtained the diagnosis for treatment). but i would take all this with a grain of salt as you are unlikely to fully have an empethy deficit.

you are more likely just dissociated but you understand what is hurtful or not-my friend doesn't (because he doesn't get hurt by things like that.) empathy in general is fascinating and while beyond perhaps the scope of this thread i do believe there is value in assessing how trauma effects empathy. i know i have deficits as well, my empethy is there but the circle is small and extremely self centered.

 

[Sideways]

In other words, the person identifying himself as victim has a high likelihood to not be honest and humble.

I think my problem in taking generic studies, then applying them to people who have underlying pathology from complex trauma...doesn't work.

Because, when you're the victim of complex trauma (you are, whether you like the language or not), there's nothing much more than honesty and self awareness happening when you say "I'm the victim of complex trauma".

For the general population who aren't victims of complex trauma? Yeah, it's probably interesting to psychologists why someone who isn't a victim of something decides to invest a whole lot of energy in telling anyone who will listen "I'm such a victim of...". Why are they doing that if they're not really a victim?

But, when you actually are a victim of complex trauma? All that becomes irrelevant. Announcing "I'm a victim of complex trauma", when you are a victim of complex trauma? Is honesty. Nothing dark and sinister about it, it's just the truth.

 

[PreciousChild]

@grief, I'm not an expert and I can't really speak to methodology, but these psychology today articles are based on peer-reviewed research in academic journals. Also, the Ekin Ok research isn't the only recent research on victimhood that correlates it with dark traits (it was published this year). The following article talks about research done by Gabay, et. Al which argues that victimhood should be considered its own personality type and that it is correlated with moral elitism, need for recognition, lack of empathy and rumination. This was published in October 2020.

The Victim Personality

Seeing oneself as a perpetual victim, always taken advantage of, may be a stable characteristic.

www.psychologytoday.com

This research supports your view that cptsd leads to diminished empathy:

Alterations in empathic responding among women with posttraumatic stress disorder associated with childhood trauma - PubMed

Women with PTSD associated with childhood trauma reported alterations among different domains of empathic functioning that may be related to low levels of paternal care.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I thought the notion of the dark triad was pretty well established in psychology circles. This article reviews the evolution in the understanding of the dark triad in the ten years since Paulhus and Williams introduced it.

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

 

[internal]

This research supports your view that cptsd leads to diminished empathy:

yeah i would definitely agree with that-conditionally. and if it's not diminished it is at least altered. and i would also argue that this is not a garantee. it happens some times. not all the time. like with me i'm borderline, some borderline presentetions appear with very low empathy and nacisistic overlaps. and some have increased empethy.

some, like me, have an empathy paradox-where i am extremely aware of the states of others but they do not always impact me the way a person with normal functioning empathy would be impacted- but that i would not under stand if i had zero affective empethy. you should read up on the empethy paradox in bpd, it's really f*cking interesting.

and the reason i keep bringing up bpd-because i'm self centered hardy har, but also- because bpd often overlaps with cptsd as well, and because when you're looking at empathy deficits, bpd is a really good place to start due to the varied presentations.

I thought the notion of the dark triad was pretty well established in psychology circles.

it's descriptive, but not diagnostic. psychopathy and machiavellenism are not diagnostic criteria. they're merely descriptive. and often with this especeally in pop articles like psychology today you often get into the mcdonald triad as well-

(pissing the bed, setting fires, torturing animels) is also some thing which occurs with people who are hevily tramatized. i did two out of three (enuresis and fires) and i'm not a "psychopath" (which again no one can be diagnosed as a psychopath as it is not clinicelly signifent). and i'm not just saying that so people will like me-

i know pwaspd and i don't stigmetize it (although obviously you should be wary.) it's some thing i've researched exhastively to determine if that is the case with me and if so how to mitegate it and what not. in edition much of the reserch of the dark triad is often incorrect. as it relies upon self reporting and most people with these traits are motevated to lie.

and i see the other artecle is psychology today as well-again, i would be wary of these artecles and how they present as some one who is diagnosticelly aspd versus some one with cptsd. because a lot of these are conducted in settings that bear no basis in reality (they lack contact with actual cluster b patients.)

 

[PreciousChild]

I think my problem in taking generic studies, then applying them to people who have underlying pathology from complex trauma...doesn't work.

Because, when you're the victim of complex trauma (you are, whether you like the language or not), there's nothing much more than honesty and self awareness happening when you say "I'm the victim of complex trauma".

For the general population who aren't victims of complex trauma? Yeah, it's probably interesting to psychologists why someone who isn't a victim of something decides to invest a whole lot of energy in telling anyone who will listen "I'm such a victim of...". Why are they doing that if they're not really a victim?

But, when you actually are a victim of complex trauma? All that becomes irrelevant. Announcing "I'm a victim of complex trauma", when you are a victim of complex trauma? Is honesty. Nothing dark and sinister about it, it's just the truth.

The last thing I want to do is victim-blame. I think what we mean by "honesty" has to be clarified. My dad was 100% honest. To him that meant that he told us how stupid, lazy, and incompetent us kids were all the time. That was straight up his perception of us. But I can ask what is behind his "honesty." He too was a victim of a traumatic past, and he 100% felt victimized. He once slapped me hard across the face because he didn't like something I did. When I looked at him with my hurt and angry expression, he slapped me hard again for looking at him disrespectfully. I was only 8 years old, but I really think he felt like I was threatening him in some way just by the way I looked. Something one of the article mentions is that a person who identifies with victimhood might exaggerate their experience if it will get them sympathy and get them off the hook or whatever. I might have done just that. I might later feel justified because things were unfair or because I have more suffering, etc., but how often am I justifying my behaviors? This is what I'm reflecting on.