Relationship Dinner With Dear Daughter

[DMerish]

My dear daughter (DD) and I met for dinner at a restaurant tonight.

DD asked about a few family members that she had cut herself off from several years back. In turn, I asked about her 87 y/o paternal grandmother whom DD sees. At one point, DD asked if I knew that grandpa died when grandma was 30 (incorrect), the same age as my DD now. Our conversation was going pleasantly so I thought I’d bring up some math. She cut off the conversation by saying “I can’t do math.” (She got high scores in math in high school) I didn’t press it. Sometimes I’m not in the mood for math either, no biggie. We went back to eating.

When I looked up next I realized DD was crying, very upset, then began to rant how she just wanted her deceased boyfriend (BF) back; no one ever loved her like he did; without him she had no worth; she would never understand why he did what he did. She ended by saying she just wanted to live to grow old with someone next to her that loves her, only her, and nobody else. She didn't want to grow old like grandma - shriveled, old, lonely and empty. I waited until she calmed down then asked if she ever thought of harming herself. She said, no, she just didn’t want to live the way that she was living and wanted to be fixed. I assured her she was loved, she had worth, things could change, etc., then asked if I could drive her to next meeting with her therapist. (She’s complained about not wanting to drive) She said “yes” then went into all the things that interfered with her seeing the therapist and everything else around doing anything to help herself. I mostly just listened.

Our evening ended at a bookstore. She found a book on trauma and asked if I’d buy it for her. I handed it to her after paying for it, and she said, “No, you read it and tell me what it says.” [What the ?]

I've dealt with mild/moderate PTSD and depression (no comparison to the level I image she's going through). I’ve known a few people to suffer from severe PTSD with depression due to something similar or worse than what my daughter experienced (again, comparison not intended). The point I'm trying to make is that I’ve never known someone that can't, won't, or doesn't try to do something to try to ease, or remove, their suffering and the effects of PTSD or depression. To me, even self medicating is an indication that the person would like change -

I don’t get it . . . I don't understand the dissonance. What am I missing? What is it I’m not seeing?

Drew~

 

[Abstract]

Gosh Drew. It sounds really hard. :(

From my experiences and a guess I think it may be more than the severity of the PTSD. I sometimes think it is the intangible stuff surrounding the trauma that puts up so many of the obstacles to healing. Our own personal little arsenal of unconscious defence mechanisms and much more.

I used to think it was just personality related but from my experiences I think it is way more complex than that. I have been like you for most of my life. If I was aware I was doing something then I would try to change and take ownership. Consciously at least. I didn't really understand those who didn't. Some part of me could empathise with the possibilities for why and where but it had limits.

But I had a misunderstanding with a therapist that lasted months a few years back and something cracked inside me and that has taught me a lot including humility in this department. I have come to think that depression has many faces and the depression that comes with PTSD is no different. Sometimes the helplessness that comes with depression seems to create some real cognitive changes or changes to will. And I imagine if the PTSD is severe that may make it a bit more likely.

I now see my ability to fight through in the past as no real skill or reason for pride and more a matter of chance in how I happened to react to situations in childhood, something I am very grateful for. That there are many possibilities in our default reactions and many possible reasons for them.

Is this typical of your daughters personality before the trauma or is this very atypical for her? It certainly isn't going to help her recovery and will be a big obstacle. I feel for you as this is likely to be a very frustrating ride for you. I think you might have mentioned that she has some vulnerabilities prior to this too?

I wonder if she has trouble reading. At my worst I can't. Even though I am someone who has always loved books. Severe concentration problems are common in PTSD and it why some of the rules on this site are in place. To aid easy reading for a traumatised brain.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

She is mourning her past. (I never had to do this so I have no idea how it plays out. I was told by a past therapist that I was "lucky" in a sense to be able to skip the reconciling my past "pre-trauma" self with the present me.)

Because she is looking back, it's hard for her to look forward. And if she can't even look forward, it's reasonable to infer that she can't move forward.

I think she may have to struggle a bit more before becoming motivated to move forward. It takes awhile to come to the realization that things will never be the way they were. Yes, we can heal, but we can never be who we were or have things be exactly the same as before the trauma.

Edited to add...

Perhaps you should look into traumatic grief. My guess is that she's dealing with that as well, so that may explain more as to why she can't yet move forward, as it may not be just PTSD.

Looking forward and moving forward may feel like a betrayal. She wants him back. To move forward means leaving him behind in a sense. She may not be ready for that.

 

[The Albatross]

Give her the book back and tell her that the choice to read it is up to her. It was a way of showing your support for her, you are not responsible for giving her a synopsis/an interpretation. She can read it if/when she chooses but I wouldn't endeavor to give a synopsis of a book to someone who clearly needs to perhaps read it.

She is allowing you to buffer her world a bit. She want's information but doesn't perhaps trust herself to read it on her own. But she needs to. She needs to pursue healing and choose it for herself.

 

[Abstract]

Actually, she may well not be able to do maths at present if her cognitive abilities are impaired enough.

I also think its a positive sign that she brought up the incident with you even if her perceptions are severely skewed. I believe he was abusive if I remember correctly. Whitewashing the perpetrator is a pretty common reaction.

Be sure to protect yourself though as you don't want a relapse.

I think not being able to do anything to get relief is probably fairly common for depression. Especially for those who have not yet been taught skills on how to manage it. Its almost a part of the diagnoses so to speak.

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

The point I'm trying to make is that I’ve never known someone that can't, won't, or doesn't try to do something to try to ease, or remove, their suffering and the effects of PTSD or depression.

It sounds like she hasn't really gotten around the idea yet. Mixed with the grief she is going through about her boyfriend I think she is feeling very overloaded. Grief, depression and PTSD are terrible together.

https://www.myptsd.com/threads/the-ptsd-cup-explanation.13737/

 

[LizardViolet]

I agree that depression may play a big role in her sense of helplessness. If she tended to end up with abusive boyfriends, she may have some negative stuff in her self-image that encourages that. I can also say based on my own brief experience with PTSD symptoms that it was very tough to concentrate and very tough to just think. It was more than I could do some days to make a phone call.

If she trusts you and has asked you to read the book and might be able to hear you if you can give her the main points, I'd say go ahead and read the book and tell her what you learn. It may be more than she can do right now.

It looks like you are doing plenty of other reading and research, reading around on this forum. I encourage you to share what you are learning with her, a bit at a time.

 

[DMerish]

Solara – The point you made was insightful. I hadn’t thought about it, and thought it was very pertinent. Thank you.

Ayesha – Thanks for the visual. My talking/explaining doesn’t help my DD. My DD is an artist, a creative, visual thinker. I think something will click in her when she sees the visual. Thanks also.

Albatross and Violet– My DD and I are different. I’ve known this for a while, but haven’t let it truly sink in and accept it until now. Give my DD any amount of art materials and she’ll come up with a beautiful composition; I’d just sit there and I’d be scared! I doubt she’ll read the book, but maybe listen on audio – I don’t know. I really don’t know what things/tools will help her. She’ll have to learn that along her journey. I’ll toss her tidbits her way here and there . . .

Abstract - Huge gratitude to you for being able to word things “just so” and for your wisdom. Yes, my DD had vulnerabilities prior to the incident. DD’s behavior now is not atypical. Some traits are simply much stronger now. Under stress, she freezes, becomes confused, wants others to tell her what to do (but doesn’t often do it unless someone will hold her hand until she’s comfortable doing for herself). I, on the other hand, become active under stress until exhaustion, but then I’ll listen, I’ll ponder, and move forward. False pride be gone: it clouds one’s thinking.

The post that mentioned the possibility of DD having a psychotic episode really struck me especially after seeing her over dinner. Undoubtedly, what happened has affected DD the most. It also affected me and each of my sons. They have felt bad that they didn’t say something to DD letting her know about their perceptions of her boyfriend . . .

We’ve been dealing with her crisis and mini-breakdowns, often not talking about what’s been going on in each of us or our intentions related to what we might be able to do to help DD. So, we had a four-way call this morning. Afterwards, my boys convinced the ex (who isn’t very involved in any of his children’s lives) to allow DD to live in one of his rentals beginning on September 1 (free). It is within five miles of me and two of my boys. My boys will help DD move out of the apt with the crazy lady that won’t take care of her own children this Friday. She’ll stay on family sofas and do a bit of camping with the boys and their families through August. Three sons, two wives, one fiancé and myself = seven. Someone will be in touch with her every day, take her to grief groups, therapist, doctor etc as needed, and she can come to my place to swim, use the fitness center, just hang out, and be around her nieces and nephews. She'll be 30 minutes away from her old stomping grounds (bars) and "friends", but near enough if she really feels she needs a "hit" (though, of course, we'll encourage otherwise).

Dealing with the survivor’s guilt, depression, PTSD, prior vulnerabilities, and maybe a personality disorder has to be done by her. Working together to help her along her journey, by providing love, empathy and compassion, (and good male role models) is our work. I think responding together as a family will help us all to heal.

I’m sure something will come up that I can’t now anticipate. Hopefully, my posts will start getting shorter.

I’m sooo thankful for this site!

Hugs to everyone. :hug:
Drew~