I think we go on because we are afraid ofhurting everyone close to us. Also the fear of what might happen after death if its from a suicide. Two big deterrents. Everything I have read.. And I have read everything in the last month.. Say that suicide near death experience's for the most part are positive but, tend to solve nothing. Most experiences come back with a new understanding of life. The things we go through are for the benefit of soul growth. The people who succeed are reincarnated at a different time just to go through the same problems all over again. Until they get it right. Maybe we are here to either experience or concur mental illness. Your situation is quite bleak in the now but, maybe it's a test of some kind in order to help you transcend to something greater. I hope this helps. I like having you around. Your posts are my favorite to read.
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Is There Ever A Point Where Suicide Is The Best Option?
- Post starter mamachick
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Candleflames
Platinum Member
This is a very complex topic. One that has many great responses here. I, personally can see the validity of all the opinions. Even the ones that seem mutually exclusive. I do believe in a person's right to be the determining factor in their own death. These are conversations we should be having with our loved ones long before we get sick or are injured and long before irrational emotions take over. We don't because death, in any form, is a big taboo topic. No one wants to think about it, yet it is the one thing that is inevitable. I think about it quite a bit. I have gone through suicidal periods since I was 8. I'm now 36.
Suicide is perhaps the most pushed away death topic that there is. So I'm really glad you brought this up. A lot of how we feel and react to things has do do with the cultural perception at the time. In our modern times suicide feels like such an unnatural process. I think much of that sentiment has to do with the idea that this is it folks. This is, as far as we know, the only life we have. Even among those that believe in life after death suicide will completely screw it all up. This hasn't always been the dominant view. There have been times in various cultures where taking your own life was considered noble even. So when trying to define our own opinions I think it is a good idea for us to understand why we have them in the first place.
That makes complete sense to me. I think many people here use their pain to define themselves. People in general define themselves in relation to their hardships regardless of the intensity. I also think it's the pain, most often, that is the motivating factor for people when they decide to end their life. I realized after your latest post that you are also referring to the physical pain you are in, which sounds near constant. I'm sorry that this is your reality right now. Most of my pain is emotional though it does manifest into the physical at times. It's still from an emotional source. Sometimes I worry that I got so miswired growing up in such a violent household that I might not ever be able to feel the positive emotions. I feel like I can empathize a little with you, but I'm not ever going to know your experience.
That's why I can't tell you, or anyone, whether or not it's time. I hope you will talk with your loved ones about how you are feeling though. We make a lot of assumptions about how they feel about our situations. The only way to know for sure is to have an honest conversation. Ideally that is what every suicide would start with, a compassionate group discussion. I also watched the documentary and had we already developed a culture that could openly discussed death and suicide some of these soldiers, or anyone for that matter, would have found a powerful advocate for themselves. Maybe that is what you will find. I find it's easier to fight for someone I love than it is to fight for myself.
That's kind of how it goes. Do for the self or others. We just try to alternate which we choose or split the difference so we can call ourselves balanced. I'd posit that the reason suicide is seen to be so much more selfish because it's the last choice. Sorry for the rather blasphemous analogy, but it's essentially taking the last piece of chocolate cake. The tit for tat is broken because there is no more giving that can happen.
This doesn't make you a hypocrite. It makes you a full person that has been there and knows the pain and has grown from it. I think that you are in a prime position to comment on this thread. You have experienced both sides.
If we can openly discuss our own end of life, figuring out who these people are would be easier. They either wouldn't show up or wouldn't contribute to the conversation. They can then be removed and no one need listen to them.
Suicide is perhaps the most pushed away death topic that there is. So I'm really glad you brought this up. A lot of how we feel and react to things has do do with the cultural perception at the time. In our modern times suicide feels like such an unnatural process. I think much of that sentiment has to do with the idea that this is it folks. This is, as far as we know, the only life we have. Even among those that believe in life after death suicide will completely screw it all up. This hasn't always been the dominant view. There have been times in various cultures where taking your own life was considered noble even. So when trying to define our own opinions I think it is a good idea for us to understand why we have them in the first place.
That makes complete sense to me. I think many people here use their pain to define themselves. People in general define themselves in relation to their hardships regardless of the intensity. I also think it's the pain, most often, that is the motivating factor for people when they decide to end their life. I realized after your latest post that you are also referring to the physical pain you are in, which sounds near constant. I'm sorry that this is your reality right now. Most of my pain is emotional though it does manifest into the physical at times. It's still from an emotional source. Sometimes I worry that I got so miswired growing up in such a violent household that I might not ever be able to feel the positive emotions. I feel like I can empathize a little with you, but I'm not ever going to know your experience.
That's why I can't tell you, or anyone, whether or not it's time. I hope you will talk with your loved ones about how you are feeling though. We make a lot of assumptions about how they feel about our situations. The only way to know for sure is to have an honest conversation. Ideally that is what every suicide would start with, a compassionate group discussion. I also watched the documentary and had we already developed a culture that could openly discussed death and suicide some of these soldiers, or anyone for that matter, would have found a powerful advocate for themselves. Maybe that is what you will find. I find it's easier to fight for someone I love than it is to fight for myself.
That's kind of how it goes. Do for the self or others. We just try to alternate which we choose or split the difference so we can call ourselves balanced. I'd posit that the reason suicide is seen to be so much more selfish because it's the last choice. Sorry for the rather blasphemous analogy, but it's essentially taking the last piece of chocolate cake. The tit for tat is broken because there is no more giving that can happen.
This doesn't make you a hypocrite. It makes you a full person that has been there and knows the pain and has grown from it. I think that you are in a prime position to comment on this thread. You have experienced both sides.
If we can openly discuss our own end of life, figuring out who these people are would be easier. They either wouldn't show up or wouldn't contribute to the conversation. They can then be removed and no one need listen to them.
Dear brat, excuse me if this isn't very eloquent but it comes from the heart.
You know what I have experienced because of what I've posted on this forum, and I am certainly one who has struggled with this a lot. Especially feeling like a burden. This is just my very humble opinion below, throw it out if not useful or helpful.
I don't think it's ever the best choice. To me it is rather irrelevant if it is rational or not. Simply because even if it is rational it presumes we have a knowledge of the future, including on how that decision will affect people perhaps we have not even ever met. Simply put though also, for those who do love you, it would be devastating. The parallel to physical illness falls short, the physical illness takes control of one's future. Family or friends see it conversely as your choice, not just an evil thing out in the world (illness and it's related suffering).
I hear 3 (and there may be more) primary issues in your post: fear of being a burden, pain fatigue (little spoken of and I believe a HUGE factor in many suicides), and a wish for relief. Can these areas be helped? We are all a burden at times. Yet in ways we all give. And we may not be a burden to some. The pain needs management- better meds, aqua therapy, eating, sleep? The future, can each day be changed, even a little? Reverse the sleep schedule back, find (as ITL said) the courage to speak words of truth to your children and ex, to be assertive? To walk the dog (even a few feet). To know, dear brat, most of all, that you are not even aware of how one kind, wise, and supportive word you say (on the forum or otherwise) can impact others for great good, and has, and does, and will. It can save a life, or contribute to ending one- that's not your style and so all the more very very necessary that people (LIKE YOU) of kindness exist.
If we turn this on it's head, paradoxically I think feeling very old young helps us think young as others age. Similarly, our fear of near everything removes our fear of what virtually everyone fears- death and other large issues. Because of this we can live with different priorities. We can chose to say or do or notice things others won't. We likely won't be superficial. We might care or understand when others won't or don't.
Is it always one's right to choose- of course. Do I think that it's the 'best', no, especially a huge loss in the case of losing you, I know and love and am grateful for all you've done for me. Can the sheer will, faith and bravery in 'not' doing it bring great good and a great example to help others? I believe so.
And when you can't do or fight anymore, you know that's your cue that you need others- a T, family or friends, your friends here. That's the time hopefully others/ we can hold on to you when you can't and give you something back for all you give. I don't think when that happens it means that suicide is a better choice, I think that's when it's your internal indicator there has to be a different change. The rest is a PTSD lie.
I hope I can be so bold and a bit 'gross' to say this, because in an odd way it helped me. When 'covering all the bases' in my planning at one point, including trying to figure out a way not to be found, I read when people drown (by ALL reasons) they are found with their arms down- the body's way to try to 'push down' as though it were a solid surface and save themself. Which made me think, and I intuitivey somehow know this, I know that if it comes to suicide for me I will regret or know it was the 'wrong' choice at the last moment when I cannot change it. Therefore, personally, if I end up going that way I hope it's because I'm not rational. Then I will be a victim of something I tried my best to overcome but could not. But it reminded me of how violent an act it is, murder of one's self, really. Which that detail seems to get lost in the blind pursuit of trying to simply make the pain stop or the grief and shame of feeling like a burden and responsible to 'remove' one's self.
I think finding ways to stop having to accept your family's actions when they are abusive and disrespectful, and stopping re-living the thoughts and experiences, will make a world of difference. And TLC, self-care, getting sleep, forcing yourself to eat. Apart from the physical pain, it's no wonder so many of us feel this way. Going through a trauma (and you've had many) is one thing. Re-living (and hence going through it again and again and again) would have anyone feeling like this if you ask me. Just an example thrown out there, a trauma on one occassion is one thing, feeling like its happened 50 times/ year is another. Who wouldn't feel this way? The key is to heal it. You can. Most conditions have no cure, but we have to learn how to live, just each day.
((((((Dear brat))))))) :inlove: :hug: , xox.
You know what I have experienced because of what I've posted on this forum, and I am certainly one who has struggled with this a lot. Especially feeling like a burden. This is just my very humble opinion below, throw it out if not useful or helpful.
I don't think it's ever the best choice. To me it is rather irrelevant if it is rational or not. Simply because even if it is rational it presumes we have a knowledge of the future, including on how that decision will affect people perhaps we have not even ever met. Simply put though also, for those who do love you, it would be devastating. The parallel to physical illness falls short, the physical illness takes control of one's future. Family or friends see it conversely as your choice, not just an evil thing out in the world (illness and it's related suffering).
I hear 3 (and there may be more) primary issues in your post: fear of being a burden, pain fatigue (little spoken of and I believe a HUGE factor in many suicides), and a wish for relief. Can these areas be helped? We are all a burden at times. Yet in ways we all give. And we may not be a burden to some. The pain needs management- better meds, aqua therapy, eating, sleep? The future, can each day be changed, even a little? Reverse the sleep schedule back, find (as ITL said) the courage to speak words of truth to your children and ex, to be assertive? To walk the dog (even a few feet). To know, dear brat, most of all, that you are not even aware of how one kind, wise, and supportive word you say (on the forum or otherwise) can impact others for great good, and has, and does, and will. It can save a life, or contribute to ending one- that's not your style and so all the more very very necessary that people (LIKE YOU) of kindness exist.
If we turn this on it's head, paradoxically I think feeling very old young helps us think young as others age. Similarly, our fear of near everything removes our fear of what virtually everyone fears- death and other large issues. Because of this we can live with different priorities. We can chose to say or do or notice things others won't. We likely won't be superficial. We might care or understand when others won't or don't.
Is it always one's right to choose- of course. Do I think that it's the 'best', no, especially a huge loss in the case of losing you, I know and love and am grateful for all you've done for me. Can the sheer will, faith and bravery in 'not' doing it bring great good and a great example to help others? I believe so.
And when you can't do or fight anymore, you know that's your cue that you need others- a T, family or friends, your friends here. That's the time hopefully others/ we can hold on to you when you can't and give you something back for all you give. I don't think when that happens it means that suicide is a better choice, I think that's when it's your internal indicator there has to be a different change. The rest is a PTSD lie.
I hope I can be so bold and a bit 'gross' to say this, because in an odd way it helped me. When 'covering all the bases' in my planning at one point, including trying to figure out a way not to be found, I read when people drown (by ALL reasons) they are found with their arms down- the body's way to try to 'push down' as though it were a solid surface and save themself. Which made me think, and I intuitivey somehow know this, I know that if it comes to suicide for me I will regret or know it was the 'wrong' choice at the last moment when I cannot change it. Therefore, personally, if I end up going that way I hope it's because I'm not rational. Then I will be a victim of something I tried my best to overcome but could not. But it reminded me of how violent an act it is, murder of one's self, really. Which that detail seems to get lost in the blind pursuit of trying to simply make the pain stop or the grief and shame of feeling like a burden and responsible to 'remove' one's self.
I think finding ways to stop having to accept your family's actions when they are abusive and disrespectful, and stopping re-living the thoughts and experiences, will make a world of difference. And TLC, self-care, getting sleep, forcing yourself to eat. Apart from the physical pain, it's no wonder so many of us feel this way. Going through a trauma (and you've had many) is one thing. Re-living (and hence going through it again and again and again) would have anyone feeling like this if you ask me. Just an example thrown out there, a trauma on one occassion is one thing, feeling like its happened 50 times/ year is another. Who wouldn't feel this way? The key is to heal it. You can. Most conditions have no cure, but we have to learn how to live, just each day.
((((((Dear brat))))))) :inlove: :hug: , xox.
I'm not guaranteeing a huge amount of coherency here, so apologies in advance for a random jumble of thoughts...
I've had suicidal feelings and thoughts, and came very very close a few times. Some recently, some when I was 10 years old (mid 80s). At the same time, part of my problems come from loss, and the feelings of being left behind. And again, with hub, I know what it felt like to live, knowing that I love him more than even I really know, that he was feeling suicidal, and never being sure whether I was going to hear his key in the lock, or a policeman knocking on the door to tell me he'd jumped under a train. (Knowing now that I'm hypervigilant about the loss of loved ones due to past events, this drove me nearly mad(der).)
So I kind of come at it from both sides, and have very conflicted emotions about it. (Hence the incoherence.)
I know that at times I have felt suicidal, (actually wanting to kill myself, as distinct from knowing I didn't want to live any more, or feeling that there was nothing to live for - there is a big difference), I haven't been balanced. Rational, yes, because I'm almost always that. But far from healthy.
I'm never going to give a chirpy 'hang on in there, it'll get better', because I've been there too many times over the years (although in reality, nothing last forever, even suicidal feelings or despair). I also don't always know what's got me through it. At one point, when I was literally completely alone in the world, I think it was pure apathy. There was no point in doing anything else, what was the point in doing that? I couldn't get anything else right, so I'd just stuff that up too. Now I think it's the image I get in my head of the pain I'd cause hub. He wouldn't grieve and move on, he'd be entirely destroyed, and I can't do that to him. Once I just drank myself into oblivion before I got to it.
In principle I agree that anybody has the right of what to do with their life. Even if that means to end it.
In reality I have a very big problem with it. In the case of assisted suicide, I think if there world were nice, and the people in it trustworthy, then no problem. But I think it's only really a matter of time before beds start being cleared, and old people start being get rid of... (though I may just have read too much Aldous Huxley).
I also agree with whoever it was that said that you're (you in the abstract, not specific people) essentially passing on your feelings to those left behind. Yes, they may grieve and move on. They may also go on to develop full blown PTSD of their own as a result, and end up spiralling down themselves.
Mostly, I think (with assisted suicide being marginally different) that suicidal thoughts are a warning sign that you're experiencing too much to be able to cope.
I've had suicidal feelings and thoughts, and came very very close a few times. Some recently, some when I was 10 years old (mid 80s). At the same time, part of my problems come from loss, and the feelings of being left behind. And again, with hub, I know what it felt like to live, knowing that I love him more than even I really know, that he was feeling suicidal, and never being sure whether I was going to hear his key in the lock, or a policeman knocking on the door to tell me he'd jumped under a train. (Knowing now that I'm hypervigilant about the loss of loved ones due to past events, this drove me nearly mad(der).)
So I kind of come at it from both sides, and have very conflicted emotions about it. (Hence the incoherence.)
I know that at times I have felt suicidal, (actually wanting to kill myself, as distinct from knowing I didn't want to live any more, or feeling that there was nothing to live for - there is a big difference), I haven't been balanced. Rational, yes, because I'm almost always that. But far from healthy.
I'm never going to give a chirpy 'hang on in there, it'll get better', because I've been there too many times over the years (although in reality, nothing last forever, even suicidal feelings or despair). I also don't always know what's got me through it. At one point, when I was literally completely alone in the world, I think it was pure apathy. There was no point in doing anything else, what was the point in doing that? I couldn't get anything else right, so I'd just stuff that up too. Now I think it's the image I get in my head of the pain I'd cause hub. He wouldn't grieve and move on, he'd be entirely destroyed, and I can't do that to him. Once I just drank myself into oblivion before I got to it.
In principle I agree that anybody has the right of what to do with their life. Even if that means to end it.
In reality I have a very big problem with it. In the case of assisted suicide, I think if there world were nice, and the people in it trustworthy, then no problem. But I think it's only really a matter of time before beds start being cleared, and old people start being get rid of... (though I may just have read too much Aldous Huxley).
I also agree with whoever it was that said that you're (you in the abstract, not specific people) essentially passing on your feelings to those left behind. Yes, they may grieve and move on. They may also go on to develop full blown PTSD of their own as a result, and end up spiralling down themselves.
Mostly, I think (with assisted suicide being marginally different) that suicidal thoughts are a warning sign that you're experiencing too much to be able to cope.
- Post starter
- #17
Wow, so much to think about, so many perspectives, thoughts, truths, compassion, and just so much more.
cdg-I do believe in reincarnation and that we come back with the same problems until we get them right. I have always believed that we do grow during our times of suffering, not during the easy times. So I agree that there may be purpose that we dont know. And thank you for your kind words of welcome.
Candleflames- I agree this is so very complex of a topic, and it is so taboo. How many of us would be able to discuss this in person with a group with the honesty that we can share here. You make a good point about that documentary and talking with families for an advocate. One thing in the documentary that was so real for me was (not sure which one) but loved one reported that took him to hospital for help and they put him a room for days and medicated him up. Then sent him home with an appointment. This really pissed me off, as does the reality of how much of the system works. I see much of our mental health system failing. If I had the energy I swear I would lobby to change mental health treatment.
Junebug you are always eloquent and speak from your heart. I know of your struggles and that you have felt like a burden, which I relate very well too. I can not imagine you being a burden, you are one of the most compassionate caring people that I know Junebug. I also know that it is what you believe that counts the most. And darn, you always know the right thing to say. I think you are right in your summary of the 3 areas. I think another factor is lack of control/choice in any area of life (work, health, where to live, etc). I know for each of us we have our own issues that hit the limit. You make a good point about rationality being irrelevant, and sum it well at the end stating that if you got to that point that you would prefer to be irrational and knowing you did your best to overcome and prevent. Your words are always very inspiring.
twopenny I think your words are very wise. I think we all may have some conflicted emotions about it. We feel the right, we dont want to make others suffer, and we , at least at times, VALUE OTHERS maybe more than our selves or abilities.
I saw my therapist today and told her how I have been thinking, and that I passed hopeless awhile back. She said that she was very concerned when she saw me 2 weeks ago because I appeared to be having out of body experience. I assured her that I am not impulsive about this, just pre-occupied. She believes that much of my thoughts has to do with my lost identity. What defined me before no longer applies. Talked to me about chosing new life and how it starts with one change. I am very grateful for her and all of you.
After I posted this, I almost regretted it. I felt a bit too exposed. I am really glad that I did and I hope dialogue continues. My sister died when I was 15, she was 29. We were told that she was murdered. When I was 30 I requested information on her death and there was a coroners inquest-They could not determine whether it was suicide or accidental. I never felt angry at her or that she was selfish, I felt she was no longer able to survive. I could understand her decision. By now I had learned that I was a survivor and it gave true meaning to the word "survivor" for me.
cdg-I do believe in reincarnation and that we come back with the same problems until we get them right. I have always believed that we do grow during our times of suffering, not during the easy times. So I agree that there may be purpose that we dont know. And thank you for your kind words of welcome.
Candleflames- I agree this is so very complex of a topic, and it is so taboo. How many of us would be able to discuss this in person with a group with the honesty that we can share here. You make a good point about that documentary and talking with families for an advocate. One thing in the documentary that was so real for me was (not sure which one) but loved one reported that took him to hospital for help and they put him a room for days and medicated him up. Then sent him home with an appointment. This really pissed me off, as does the reality of how much of the system works. I see much of our mental health system failing. If I had the energy I swear I would lobby to change mental health treatment.
Junebug you are always eloquent and speak from your heart. I know of your struggles and that you have felt like a burden, which I relate very well too. I can not imagine you being a burden, you are one of the most compassionate caring people that I know Junebug. I also know that it is what you believe that counts the most. And darn, you always know the right thing to say. I think you are right in your summary of the 3 areas. I think another factor is lack of control/choice in any area of life (work, health, where to live, etc). I know for each of us we have our own issues that hit the limit. You make a good point about rationality being irrelevant, and sum it well at the end stating that if you got to that point that you would prefer to be irrational and knowing you did your best to overcome and prevent. Your words are always very inspiring.
twopenny I think your words are very wise. I think we all may have some conflicted emotions about it. We feel the right, we dont want to make others suffer, and we , at least at times, VALUE OTHERS maybe more than our selves or abilities.
I saw my therapist today and told her how I have been thinking, and that I passed hopeless awhile back. She said that she was very concerned when she saw me 2 weeks ago because I appeared to be having out of body experience. I assured her that I am not impulsive about this, just pre-occupied. She believes that much of my thoughts has to do with my lost identity. What defined me before no longer applies. Talked to me about chosing new life and how it starts with one change. I am very grateful for her and all of you.
After I posted this, I almost regretted it. I felt a bit too exposed. I am really glad that I did and I hope dialogue continues. My sister died when I was 15, she was 29. We were told that she was murdered. When I was 30 I requested information on her death and there was a coroners inquest-They could not determine whether it was suicide or accidental. I never felt angry at her or that she was selfish, I felt she was no longer able to survive. I could understand her decision. By now I had learned that I was a survivor and it gave true meaning to the word "survivor" for me.
I believe that suicide can be either an impulsive, spontaneous and irrational decision, or a calculated, pragmatic and definitive one. Yes, the act and outcome are the same, but the purpose and meaning are very different, and sadly and inevitably, in many cases, those left behind won't necessarily know the difference. I think part of the tendency to label suicide as impulsive and needless is that it's an act that is judged after the fact by people who are unable to fully empathise with the thoughts and feelings of the person who is gone, and because they are gone, we can't ever ask them. Suicide, like all forms of death, cannot really be studied or fully understood, because nobody is ever around to report on it later.
I have been very close a number of times in my life. On several of those occasions, I believe my near-actions were the result of emotional overwhelm, symptomatic overload and the complete loss of hope for anything to be any different. At that point, the distinction between wanting to die and wanting an end to suffering disappears, because it becomes impossible to believe in a life free from suffering.
Earlier this year, I made an unsuccessful attempt. The only reason it was unsuccessful was due to an unforeseen gliche in my plan, not to any abortion of the attempt on my part. It should have worked, and I meant it to. For me, it feels different to have executed a plan that ultimately didn't work, as opposed to having pulled back at the last minute. Currently, I am having a lot of emotional backlash from that experience and am having to find a way to talk about it and to process it, as sadly, it has come to exist as a trauma all its own.
One part of that which has been intensely validating for me has been my therapist's reminders that given my life and history, it is hardly surprising that I should entertain such thoughts and notions and consider it as a viable and sometimes necessary option from time to time. I think such validation is important not as a means of supporting the act indirectly, but as a means of removing some of the terrible stigma and shame that go along with having to survive the aftermath of an attempt.
I think we, as a society, need to be more careful not to judge and stigmatise those who either try or succeed to commit suicide. In doing so, all we do is add to the isolation and despair of those who find themselves in that place, and reduce the likelihood that they will confess to the extent of their feelings or seek the help that might well prevent an attempt. In stigmatising and marginalising suicide, all we do is perpetuate its prevalence, and that is very sad, and needless.
Sorry, I've jumped around all over the place, this is a complex and challenging issue for me, but one I have found it helpful and encouraging to read about, and am slowly, fearfully, even learning to talk about.
Maddog
I have been very close a number of times in my life. On several of those occasions, I believe my near-actions were the result of emotional overwhelm, symptomatic overload and the complete loss of hope for anything to be any different. At that point, the distinction between wanting to die and wanting an end to suffering disappears, because it becomes impossible to believe in a life free from suffering.
Earlier this year, I made an unsuccessful attempt. The only reason it was unsuccessful was due to an unforeseen gliche in my plan, not to any abortion of the attempt on my part. It should have worked, and I meant it to. For me, it feels different to have executed a plan that ultimately didn't work, as opposed to having pulled back at the last minute. Currently, I am having a lot of emotional backlash from that experience and am having to find a way to talk about it and to process it, as sadly, it has come to exist as a trauma all its own.
One part of that which has been intensely validating for me has been my therapist's reminders that given my life and history, it is hardly surprising that I should entertain such thoughts and notions and consider it as a viable and sometimes necessary option from time to time. I think such validation is important not as a means of supporting the act indirectly, but as a means of removing some of the terrible stigma and shame that go along with having to survive the aftermath of an attempt.
I think we, as a society, need to be more careful not to judge and stigmatise those who either try or succeed to commit suicide. In doing so, all we do is add to the isolation and despair of those who find themselves in that place, and reduce the likelihood that they will confess to the extent of their feelings or seek the help that might well prevent an attempt. In stigmatising and marginalising suicide, all we do is perpetuate its prevalence, and that is very sad, and needless.
Sorry, I've jumped around all over the place, this is a complex and challenging issue for me, but one I have found it helpful and encouraging to read about, and am slowly, fearfully, even learning to talk about.
Maddog
I agree with Maddog above. Hope you are feeling stronger MD :hug: .
Dear brat, I am so glad it sounds like you have a good T. That was brave also to talk to her about it and be honest.
Thank YOU for your kind words also. (See what I mean. :) :inlove: ). I do understand it (or have experienced it) from many sides of the fence: attempts that were 'unsuccessful' I did not regret, bar the fact they were 'unsuccessful'; regret (huge) at the pain (then) it would have caused; no SI; rampant uncontrollable SI; immediate SI due to emotional flashbacks; shame; hiding (it); stigma; near suicide when I couldn't remember any one; swearing not to; promising not to; wishing I could; inexplicable health problem disappearing and being thankful to be alive; understanding and no condemnation for those who have ended up in that place.
Yes brat taking control, and TLC would help. And you don't have to feel badly to choose not to when your sister may have, or feel that she was right or wrong, or love her less. Whatever you choose does not reflect badly on her. I think she would want you to choose to live. And to reach out. For your nephews and her memory also.
I hope you can keep reaching out to your T. ((((((Dear brat)))))))) :hug: .
Dear brat, I am so glad it sounds like you have a good T. That was brave also to talk to her about it and be honest.
Thank YOU for your kind words also. (See what I mean. :) :inlove: ). I do understand it (or have experienced it) from many sides of the fence: attempts that were 'unsuccessful' I did not regret, bar the fact they were 'unsuccessful'; regret (huge) at the pain (then) it would have caused; no SI; rampant uncontrollable SI; immediate SI due to emotional flashbacks; shame; hiding (it); stigma; near suicide when I couldn't remember any one; swearing not to; promising not to; wishing I could; inexplicable health problem disappearing and being thankful to be alive; understanding and no condemnation for those who have ended up in that place.
Yes brat taking control, and TLC would help. And you don't have to feel badly to choose not to when your sister may have, or feel that she was right or wrong, or love her less. Whatever you choose does not reflect badly on her. I think she would want you to choose to live. And to reach out. For your nephews and her memory also.
I hope you can keep reaching out to your T. ((((((Dear brat)))))))) :hug: .
- Post starter
- #21
Maddog-your first paragraph fully describes the different states of mind. I could not adequately harness all my thoughts in first post, but your description does it. Others words often help me to find my own. Helped me to see that I am asking if suicide can be an ACTION as well as REACTION? You defined the different states well.
I am so sorry that you have experienced this strong desire and implemented a plan. I agree that the thoughts and plans can become traumatic on their own. I also hope that you are feeling stronger. Maddog you would be so sadly missed. I have been helped so much from your posts and I know others have. While it is not your purpose to serve us here, I just know that you are such a good person and have so much to give, and when one gives as you do, I am sure that you will find a way to give yourself what you need for a happy life. Please know I am here for you if you would ever like to talk about it, you can pm me. I would be glad to be of help. I think your therapist is very right with her approach for eliminating the guilt and stigma.
Suicide guilt- I fought SI periodically after my 20 yr old daughter helplessly witnessed my assault. I felt such guilt for what she witnessed and had to become involved in, including watching me fall apart and overdose on prescribed medications that I could not keep straight. I felt such guilt, and still do 5 yrs later. But after 6 months of random thoughts of suicide an refusing to think about or entertain(no plan), having not found this website yet, I made a sloppy attempt that left me hospitalized. The entire period is traumatizing in itself. The guilt that I feel for my daughter is monumental. Guilt for causing fear. The hospital experience. It also becomes part of our identity I think. I so agree with maddog, this topic needs to be talked about with the feelings of shame and guilt that currently exist.
Junebug I am so glad for your health problem inexplicably disappearing. I am understanding that you are currently not having any SI? I find it so amazing how I can see so much value in other, what you give, (not that we should always be giving others), but have personalities that I would expect to attract the most loving people and situations. I can always see the good in others regardless of any errors in judgements. I can see where there is nothing that others could do that deserves the pain that comes to them. Yet I cant see it for myself. I can feel very hopeful for others, but not for myself.
I have been giving this a bit of thought, and all the things you mentioned Junebug are very correct. Yet I also agree with therapist about the fact that my identity fully flipped. She knew me when I was strong, a grad student, stood up for what was right, walked every day and was physically healthy, was creative and resourceful and full of hope, maintained a sense of humor, overcame obstacles, chose my own destiny and had so much purpose and more plans than I could achieve in one lifetime.
Last fall I was asked to be a guest speaker for "Out of the Darkness", which is a suicide prevention organiziation that promotes awareness. I was asked due to my profession. My SI was not as severe at the time. I could not turn them down because of my personal values. Yet I felt like a hypocrite as nobody their knew my own situation. I was only one of several to speak and had 10 minutes. I had my own knowledge but did a lot of research because the audiance was mostly survivors of someone who committed suicide and of course I wanted to be sensative to their feelings. There were so many avenues to go. In researching I discovered several things that I did not know, such as the meaning of "sticking your head in the oven" and how much removing lethal means have changed the outcome/can be a deterrent because of how impulsive it often is. I feel like a hypocrite still and I know I am going to be asked again as I just got an email from the gal. I did not want to make survivors feel quilty yet felt that it was important to provide information-notice the changes, initiate dialog, and reduce/eliminate the stigma that is associated with suicide. The one message that I ended with was that as a society, we have become intolerant to slurs related to race, sexual orientation, handicaps, and the like, and it is time that we do NOT accept in any way(laughing, participating, or passively,) slurs and jokes about those suffering any form of mental illness, ie crazy, psyco, nuts, etc. It was a very sad audience. I felt like a hypocrite and am afraid to to it again because of my own experience. Yet, the other side is-does it matter that I have experienced this myself.
I would welcome any thoughts on the above and what is most important to talk about even though I have not committed.
I am so sorry that you have experienced this strong desire and implemented a plan. I agree that the thoughts and plans can become traumatic on their own. I also hope that you are feeling stronger. Maddog you would be so sadly missed. I have been helped so much from your posts and I know others have. While it is not your purpose to serve us here, I just know that you are such a good person and have so much to give, and when one gives as you do, I am sure that you will find a way to give yourself what you need for a happy life. Please know I am here for you if you would ever like to talk about it, you can pm me. I would be glad to be of help. I think your therapist is very right with her approach for eliminating the guilt and stigma.
Suicide guilt- I fought SI periodically after my 20 yr old daughter helplessly witnessed my assault. I felt such guilt for what she witnessed and had to become involved in, including watching me fall apart and overdose on prescribed medications that I could not keep straight. I felt such guilt, and still do 5 yrs later. But after 6 months of random thoughts of suicide an refusing to think about or entertain(no plan), having not found this website yet, I made a sloppy attempt that left me hospitalized. The entire period is traumatizing in itself. The guilt that I feel for my daughter is monumental. Guilt for causing fear. The hospital experience. It also becomes part of our identity I think. I so agree with maddog, this topic needs to be talked about with the feelings of shame and guilt that currently exist.
Junebug I am so glad for your health problem inexplicably disappearing. I am understanding that you are currently not having any SI? I find it so amazing how I can see so much value in other, what you give, (not that we should always be giving others), but have personalities that I would expect to attract the most loving people and situations. I can always see the good in others regardless of any errors in judgements. I can see where there is nothing that others could do that deserves the pain that comes to them. Yet I cant see it for myself. I can feel very hopeful for others, but not for myself.
I have been giving this a bit of thought, and all the things you mentioned Junebug are very correct. Yet I also agree with therapist about the fact that my identity fully flipped. She knew me when I was strong, a grad student, stood up for what was right, walked every day and was physically healthy, was creative and resourceful and full of hope, maintained a sense of humor, overcame obstacles, chose my own destiny and had so much purpose and more plans than I could achieve in one lifetime.
Last fall I was asked to be a guest speaker for "Out of the Darkness", which is a suicide prevention organiziation that promotes awareness. I was asked due to my profession. My SI was not as severe at the time. I could not turn them down because of my personal values. Yet I felt like a hypocrite as nobody their knew my own situation. I was only one of several to speak and had 10 minutes. I had my own knowledge but did a lot of research because the audiance was mostly survivors of someone who committed suicide and of course I wanted to be sensative to their feelings. There were so many avenues to go. In researching I discovered several things that I did not know, such as the meaning of "sticking your head in the oven" and how much removing lethal means have changed the outcome/can be a deterrent because of how impulsive it often is. I feel like a hypocrite still and I know I am going to be asked again as I just got an email from the gal. I did not want to make survivors feel quilty yet felt that it was important to provide information-notice the changes, initiate dialog, and reduce/eliminate the stigma that is associated with suicide. The one message that I ended with was that as a society, we have become intolerant to slurs related to race, sexual orientation, handicaps, and the like, and it is time that we do NOT accept in any way(laughing, participating, or passively,) slurs and jokes about those suffering any form of mental illness, ie crazy, psyco, nuts, etc. It was a very sad audience. I felt like a hypocrite and am afraid to to it again because of my own experience. Yet, the other side is-does it matter that I have experienced this myself.
I would welcome any thoughts on the above and what is most important to talk about even though I have not committed.
Dear brat, I agree whole-heartedly and echo your words- MD you are such a valuable, beautiful, wise and kind person. :inlove: :hug:
I'm not sure brat, but the inevitable (and required) change in our identity, it is shocking and needs to be grieved. Though as we are now cannot remain exactly as is, simply because we all change with time and experiences.
I have been very fortunate to have been doing a bit better this week (I tentatively say!). I too find the journey difficult. And impossible to see myself myself as you describe, though I think that is so sweet of you to say. I would call myself mild to moderate risk with a high degree of risk of lethality. Just because it doesn't take much to know what a plan would have to include. But it's been a difficult few weeks. I do say that I can deal with (immediate) SI from an emotional flashback much better, because I understand what it is. However, a big 'improvement' may be I try not to think about it, and though I perhaps (myself) cannot hope or have the requiste faith I need, I try to trust that faith in others.
I think it is invaluable you have the knowledge you do, in terms of speaking for that group. And in understanding (as you said) that you do not want to introduce to them any feelings of guilt etc. You have a unique understanding, compassion and speak from the heart. If you feel up to doing it I think it would help many people. Although unless you felt or wanted to, I would not reveal it, because of privacy but also because the people might be in different stages of healing and that might be too much to bear, or they would unintentionally project unreconciled anger etc on to you.
I only once told someone I loved who lost 2 children to suicide how it felt on this side of the fence (with the greatest gentleness and diplomacy I could). I did not expect her to remember (which is why I said it, just to try to help in the moment), because cognitively she could not retain new info. Lo and behold she did remember all of it. :eek: However, she cried too and said she had never felt better (for all the year) since she heard what I had said/ tried to explain/ help her with.
((((((((Dear brat))))))) :inlove:
I'm not sure brat, but the inevitable (and required) change in our identity, it is shocking and needs to be grieved. Though as we are now cannot remain exactly as is, simply because we all change with time and experiences.
I have been very fortunate to have been doing a bit better this week (I tentatively say!). I too find the journey difficult. And impossible to see myself myself as you describe, though I think that is so sweet of you to say. I would call myself mild to moderate risk with a high degree of risk of lethality. Just because it doesn't take much to know what a plan would have to include. But it's been a difficult few weeks. I do say that I can deal with (immediate) SI from an emotional flashback much better, because I understand what it is. However, a big 'improvement' may be I try not to think about it, and though I perhaps (myself) cannot hope or have the requiste faith I need, I try to trust that faith in others.
I think it is invaluable you have the knowledge you do, in terms of speaking for that group. And in understanding (as you said) that you do not want to introduce to them any feelings of guilt etc. You have a unique understanding, compassion and speak from the heart. If you feel up to doing it I think it would help many people. Although unless you felt or wanted to, I would not reveal it, because of privacy but also because the people might be in different stages of healing and that might be too much to bear, or they would unintentionally project unreconciled anger etc on to you.
I only once told someone I loved who lost 2 children to suicide how it felt on this side of the fence (with the greatest gentleness and diplomacy I could). I did not expect her to remember (which is why I said it, just to try to help in the moment), because cognitively she could not retain new info. Lo and behold she did remember all of it. :eek: However, she cried too and said she had never felt better (for all the year) since she heard what I had said/ tried to explain/ help her with.
((((((((Dear brat))))))) :inlove:
- Post starter
- #24
We all do change with time and experience-unless we are stuck. I do think I am stuck in a big way. My divorce not final after 20 yrs, stuck in, and with house, have had heart borken, cognitively frozen, etc. This without mention of trauma
SI and with some success. Just not approptiate for community. Isnt that the way, people remember what you least expect.
Thank you Junebug (((((((hugs junrbug))))))))))
SI and with some success. Just not approptiate for community. Isnt that the way, people remember what you least expect.
Thank you Junebug (((((((hugs junrbug))))))))))
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