C-ptsd, Never Had Dissociation?

[NovemberStar]

Some of the experiences you describe just above in your last post I would describe as dissociative - confusion as to if you are there or not; the perception people are the same person; the 'odd' conversation expereinces - to me, if I felt that way, I would describe it as dissociative.

ON a side note - @Justmehere - thank you for the explanation as to the culture in the USA, re the DSM - it makes sense, having that back ground info, thank you for sharing it. I agree that (some) might feel annoyed / upset / irritated if CPTSD is / has been portrayed as being 'more serious' than another form of PTSD - I think that is why some people dislike the concept of CPTSD - because they feel having a slightly different term used somehow separates people into different severities of PTSD, and invalidates their experience. That "only" having "one" traumatic even tin their lives somehow means they are suffering less than the person who has experienced several or multiple trauma's. For me, when I see the letter 'C' added in front of PTSD it lets me know that tyne person posting has had multiple trauma's. It gives me a 'heads up' - in much the same way when another poster might use the letters 'CSA' to summarize their trauma [Child Sexual Abuse]. It's just s shorthand ;)

And like you said - trauma is trauma - pain is pain, suffering is suffering. Personally, I do not apply the term CPTSD to myself in order to highlight that 'hey I've been through multiple traumas over multiple years' - it's much less abut that than it is about a simple, basic explanation as to why I feel and think the way I do - while at the same time acknowledging I have a lot of hard work ahead of me, that might take longer than if I had had one traumatic event to work through.

 

[anthony]

So even though it's not in the DSM, it is still legit diagnosis your professionals gave you.

No, it's not. Show me the diagnostic criterion a therapist in the US is using to diagnose CPTSD? Show me where they have been given approval to give this diagnosis and the criterion in which it is done.

CPTSD is anything but American, in actual fact. CPTSD has more leverage in European countries than it does in America, for validation of diagnostic application and reality, hence why the WHO are still looking at whether or not to include it. The DSM has been in controversy for more than a decade. The DSM V didn't create anything new, and has done less damage than the DSM IV did upon release. Just go research that one... OMFG, mental health practitioners had a shit fit over the DSM IV versus the DSM V.

CPTSD has no valid anything... show me otherwise please. There is not an insurance company on the planet that would cite CPTSD, because it has no diagnostic criterion and thus no legality, and insurance is all about legality.

And back to the original question.... If you don't experience dissociation, you don't have PTSD, let alone CPTSD.

That is incorrect actually, as the diagnostic criterion for PTSD states only ONE of the following:

B. Presence of one (or more) of the following intrusion symptoms associated with the traumatic event(s), beginning after the traumatic event(s) occurred:

1. Recurrent, involuntary, and intrusive distressing memories of the traumatic event(s) Note: In children older than 6 years, repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the traumatic event(s) are expressed.
2. Recurrent distressing dreams in which the content and/or affect of the dream are related to the traumatic event(s). Note: In children, there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content.
3. Dissociative reactions (e.g., flashbacks) in which the individual feels or acts as if the traumatic event(s) were recurring. (Such reactions may occur on a continuum, with the most extreme expression being a complete loss of awareness of present surroundings.) Note: In children, trauma-specific reenactment may occur in play.
4. Intense or prolonged psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event(s).
5. Marked physiological reactions to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event(s).

You don't need to have dissociation in order to have PTSD.

Now... based on the proposed criterion rumbling around the web with zero authenticity or official anything for CPTSD, dissociation is a major component of why CPTSD was proposed to begin with, therefore I would concur that anyone telling you that you have CPTSD without dissociative effect is an idiot, and telling you nonsense for their own purpose / building their own reputation as treating someone with complex trauma.

@PandaBear12212 dissociation is actually very simple. Dissociation is not about sitting there in a trance, that is not it at all. Dissociation is about the brain not recollecting periods of time, which obviously can't be ascertained to a specific symptom, such as a flashback. A flashback is a form of dissociation, but not dissociation in the general sense. Every human being actually dissociates without any mental health disorder. If you've ever walked from point A to point B, and arrived and you don't remember the walk, that is dissociation. You don't remember it because your brain dissociated from the walking to other thoughts / activity, because it likely knew the walk so well that it isn't something that needed full focus. This happens when you travel the same route often. Your brain is actually aware of everything around you, so if something was new or changed, it would process it... but otherwise that is how the brain works by default.

With trauma, you may have a therapy session and not remember chunks of it... that would be due to being triggered and your brain just goes elsewhere. That is dissociation. There is normal dissociation as a human being, then there is dissociation which for some becomes a major aspect of their day, basically their brain just wants to shut-out the world ongoing, thus they can't function very well as a result. That is the level for something like the proposed CPTSD diagnosis currently sitting with WHO.

 

[PandaBear12212]

Look this IS criteria for C-PTSD.

Diagnostic criteria for complex post-traumatic stress responses
(I) Alteration in Regulation of Affect and Impulses
(A and one of B to F required)

• affect regulation
• modulation of anger
• self-destructive behaviour
• suicidal preoccupation
• difficulty modulating sexual involvement
• excessive risk-taking

(II) Alterations in Attention or Consciousness
(A or B required)

• amnesia
• transient dissociative episodes and depersonalization

(III) Alterations in Self-Perception
(Two of A to F required)

• ineffectiveness
• permanent damage
• guilt and responsibility
• shame
• nobody can understand
• minimizing

(IV) Alterations in Relations with Others
(One of A to C required)

• inability to trust
• revictimization
• victimizing others

(V) Somatization
(Two of A to E required)

• problems with the digestive system
• chronic pain
• cardiopulmonary symptoms
• conversion symptoms
• sexual symptoms

(VI) Alterations in Systems of Meaning
(A or B required)

• despair and hopelessness
• loss of previously sustaining beliefs

Luxenberg, Spinazzola, van der Kolk. Reprinted with permission from The Hatherleigh Company, Ltd., New York.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Maybe its just best to let those who want CPTSD believe that they have an unofficial diagnosis, even when such people don't even meet all the criterion for said "disorder".

I'm confused why you're SO adamant that you have the disorder after stating that dissociation isn't an issue for you and then 15 posts later making a reply that states dissociation is a diagnostic criteria of CPTSD.

I honestly don't think you know what you're arguing and just want the label in order to differentiate yourself from one instance trauma victims.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

@Justmehere,
I don't think its particularly helpful to make blanket statements like "the DSM is out of favor here in the US" when you don't actually know that. Maybe your particular doctors don't use it, but like it or not, it is the law of the land when it comes to insurance and government/legal documents. Not to mention the fact that you are making a blanket statement about all mental disorders in the DSM when in fact you are only talking about CPTSD. Unless something radical changes, the DSM is pretty much here to stay, even if a few trauma therapists don't like it.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Panda,
You're a bit misinformed in that "C" isn't the designator for multiple traumas vs single traumas. There are a LOT of us out there who have had multiple traumas but don't get to join the "C" club.

 

[PandaBear12212]

Its A or B, not both. I am currently experiencing amnesia. And it's not some club. Its not something anyone wants to be a part of. But its what best describes my condition. Much better than ptsd. Do not assume my intentions or my thoughts or feelings. I know that C-PTSD is what best describes my current condition a heck of a lot better than PTSD. Again, I JUST wanted to know about dissociation and what it feels like so I could understand it better and see whether or not I have experienced it. So instead of assuming my intentions and my thoughts and feelings. You should either offer help about what disassociation means or just stop. Because you discounting me is not getting anywhere and it is in no way helpful.

 

[NovemberStar]

Panda,
You're a bit misinformed in that "C" isn't the designator for multiple traumas vs single traumas. There are a LOT of us out there who have had multiple traumas but don't get to join the "C" club.

I feel sad when this topic is so debated, or it is alluded to that those of us who prefer to use the term CPTSD to describe our personal experiences and symptoms, are in some way want to be 'differen't or 'separate' from everyone else with PTSD. It isn't a 'club' and I feel hurt that anyone might think I might feel that way just because I sometimes refer to 'complex' PTSD.

When I use that term or put 'CPTSD' I am not trying to say my trauma is worse than anyone else, I am not trying to be 'different' or 'more special' than anyone else. I am merely using a term that I personally feel explains my experiences and symptoms more succinctly than 'PTSD'. I don't see it as being any different than qualifying 'PTSD' by using any other shorthand or group of words to explain my experience - i.e. 'I have PTSD due to child sexual abuse' or 'I have PTSD due to domestic violence' or 'I am a vet[eran]'.

I just wish others whose personal beliefs at to the term CPTSD differ would just let those of us who prefer to use it, use it and not enter a debate as to the validity of it - because intentional or not, it is really invalidating when the use of 'CPTSD' is critiqued or debated. And as Panda said above - just because something isn't recognized 'officially' does not mean it does not exist. All it means is, it is not 'officially' recognized by a particular group or groups of professionals.

Solara - I'm sorry if my reply comes across as angry or defensive, or if you feel I might be personally attacking you in particular, because it really is not my intention - I just feel really sensitive to the debate surrounding this, because if feels so invalidating when I try to explain what is happening for me [by using the qualifier CPTSD] only to be told 'that doesn't exist' or 'it isn't even real' - cos in my mind and heart, it isn't that others are saying the words I use are not real or don't exist, it is as if my experiences are not real or do not exist.

 

[Justmehere]

@anthony - Can I post links to articles backing up my statements about the DSM? (I'm not always so clear about what is and isn't within forum rules when it comes to linking to outside sources.) Or should I quote from the articles and give the titles instead?

We agree on more than we disagree on. For the proof of what you asked for about what we disagree on regarding the DSM, please let me know the best way to post that information.

 

[PandaBear12212]

I feel exactly the same as NovemberStar. I am honestly and truly really offended by the "club" statement. It is what I use to describe my symptoms and my situation. And as I've said multiple times, this is NOT what I wanted to discuss. I wanted help understanding what dissociation feels like so I could discuss it with my therapists to work on it if I had symptoms of dissociation. Like I said right now I am experiencing amnesia, partially due to the seizures. But I also think it may be my form of dissociation. This is what I'm trying to figure out, if whether or not I have experienced dissociation.

 

[NovemberStar]

@anthony - Can I post links to articles backing up my statements about the DSM? (I'm not always so clear about what is and isn't within forum rules when it comes to linking to outside sources.) Or should I quote from the articles and give the titles instead?
.

Please don't - I think its safe to assume, Panda won't want you to either. Please just know it is a very sensitive topic, leaving some of us feeling invalidated and hurt - I know that is probably not your intention, but I really do not see how continuing to 'argue' or clarify what the DSM v says or doesn't say, is going to help here. You are right in that we can agree on a lot - the finer points really do not matter. It is not a case of having to 'prove' anything - as Panda has sated more than once and clearly - she is not interested in what the DSM has to say or otherwise - that just because a crime is not officially reported does not mean it didn't happen - just because it is not 'official' does not mean it does not exist.

I / we understand some people do not think it is a 'real' diagnosis. We understand the DSM V does not recognize it. We understand that because of those facts, some people believe any T that uses the term or tells a client they have CPTSD is not professional or doesn't' diagnose correctly. You are right in that we can probably all agree on those points.

But please hear me when I say - its not what others of us believe, or feel, and it feels very invalidating to be told the words and terms we use to explain our feelings and experiences of PTSD 'don't mean anything'. It is not about whether or not the diagnosis exists or doesn't - so posting articles or citations as to what the DSM says or doesn't say, is irrelevant - because its that we have a term or word that we feels fits us and the things we feel, perfectly, that is the reason some of us use that term. Hence, discounting the terms or words as 'not being real' invalidates our understanding of our experiences of trauma and the diagnosis of PTSD - complex or otherwise.

 

[NovemberStar]

Maybe its just best to let those who want CPTSD believe that they have an unofficial diagnosis, even when such people don't even meet all the criterion for said "disorder".

I'm confused why you're SO adamant that you have the disorder after stating that dissociation isn't an issue for you and then 15 posts later making a reply that states dissociation is a diagnostic criteria of CPTSD.

I honestly don't think you know what you're arguing and just want the label in order to differentiate yourself from one instance trauma victims.

@Solara - I haven't got the impression Panda is 'adamant' she dose not have dissociation - she is adamant she does not have a personality disorder and that she prefers to describer her experience of PTSD as complex CPTSD. She has asked what others experiences of dissociation are, in order to try to see if she does in fact experience it. I agree - let those of us who wish to describe our experiences of CPTSD be. There is no need to argue its not 'real' or 'doesn't exist' - its real and does exits to US, the people experiencing it - that is the only matter of importance in all of it.

I resent the notion that I, or anyone else who uses that term is trying to separate ourselves from anyone else with PTSD - there seems to be a real (false) notion that if someone says they have CPTSD, they are somehow implying THEIR trauma is WORSE or they are SPECIAL - when, as I explained above, that is NOT the case.

As I stated above - for most of us who use the terms CPTSD or 'complex PTSD' it is used simply as a qualifier no different to someone else summarizing their underlying trauma as having been CSA / from being a veteran / car accident.

It merely describes our symptoms and experiences, in much the same way as saying "I have PTSD due to a car accident' or 'I have PTSD due to CSA'. because while there is a huge overlap of symptoms in PTSD, different trauma's produce slightly different symptoms. A war vet might be hypersensitive to loud bangs and flashes of light - a person whose trauma was sexual abuse probably will not; someone who was traumatized as a result of a car accident might have a fear of being in a car; I was the victim of childhood abuse and do not fear being in cars. Someone who experienced child abuse will probably have an innate distrust of others; someone traumatized by a cart accident, not as much.

In that context, can you see that it merely summarizes a group of experiences or symptoms? It's NOt about 'trying to be different or 'special'.

No one would tell someone who was traumatized from being in a car accident that 'hey, stop highlighting that it was a car accident - that's not relevant, you're just trying differentiate yourself from those who haven't been in a car accident!'

Adding the qualifier - whether or not it is CPTSD or CSA, or 'car accident' simply alerts the reader to a deeper understanding of the issues the person might be positing about and seeking support on.