Sexual Assault Abuse And Sexual Side-effects - Relationships

[cherryblossom]

People with healthy sexual function would naturally be led into sex from most of those connecting activities. I still don't see how you can remove sex from a romantic relationship and think its the same thing as a sexual relationship just minus the sex. Any room-mate can fulfill some of those items, but its still nowhere near the same as a sexual relationship with someone. Sex is what makes it a special type of relationship, otherwise anyone could fill the role.

You asked about the differences between a 'partner' and a friend. Not about the differences between a romantic relationship and a sexual relationship. Clearly a sexual relationship has to involve sex. But a partnership, relationship, or marriage doesn't necessarily have to include sex.

5. If sex isn't a big deal and not a vibrant and important part of a good and healthy relationship, then what separates your relationship with your "partner" from any other friend or acquaintance?

Any two people can choose to be in a committed, loving relationship, without having sex, if they both agree. Friends, and acquaintances are just that. Friends and acquaintances, nothing more, nothing less. Like I said, I have friends and acquaintances, but they come no where near to what I described previously of unconditional physical, and emotional closeness. I certainly don't share a home or a bed, with any of my friends. Nor do I cuddle up with them on the sofa, or plan our future together . . . because they are just friends.

I wonder if perhaps we are talking at crossed purposes on this subject?

I simply mean that two people in a romantic/sexual relationship have a reasonable expectation that their partner will want to be with them, care about their needs, and make a best effort to satisfy them.

She has done this, hasn't she? Doesn't she have sex with you frequently, even though she doesn't want to have sex?

Just the same as I care about her and would do anything to meet her needs.

I still don't understand how having sex with her, when she doesn't want sex is meeting her needs.

sex without the emotional bonding is unfulfilling and repugnant, at least for me and I am pretty sure I can say it is for my wife as well.

I don't understand why, if it's unfulfilling, and repugnant, you have been in this situation for so long. You still seem quite sure that it is your wife who has the 'problem'. Perhaps, as I think I said initially, you are both just completely sexually incompatible, without there being any reason or blame on either party.

 

[Tinyflame]

I'm not sure about the big picture here, but I think the delivery of 'come watch you in the shower if she wants' personally is about as romantic or intimate or close as watching a lead balloon crash. First of all, if she is afraid she won't 'want' to. But other than that, if her trust of you isn't increasing outside of the bedroom it isn't going to inside of the bedroom. 'Duty' it will be (and no, I don't agree with the term but describes sex more than making love). Similarly, how 'attractive' are you making yourself and the environment? And that's not a question of 'cheesy' props but knowing and loving your wife. Does she feel loved by you, or protected or cared for? How often do you laugh and be grateful for one another? How much do you take for granted? (Not trying to be a 'jerk', btw, just questions you can answer to yourself privately, or other questions you think of).

I don't think you don't love your wife, but you are expecting a different dynamic without both of you learning how to change it. Just my humble opinion of course.

 

[Go Hungry]

@cherryblossom I do understand that that was her reason, and completely valid. I think I worded that all poorly. The quote was about my reason for being a sex addict. I'm the one who was f*cked in the head from a previous relationship, not her...

I never said there was anything -wrong- with my ex-wife, just that we were sexually incompatible on a deep level. Deep enough that there was no fixing it. I even went on drugs that lowered my libido to borderline human levels. But still, it was something we could never overcome. It's a real bummer.

 

[Go Hungry]

Oh wait, just realized that you were talking to Joe instead of me.. Sorry.. :clown:

 

[cherryblossom]

@Go Hungry yes you are correct I was responding to joe. I'm sorry for any confusion.

 

[joeylittle]

I have read the whole thread, with great interest. @thisbejoe7 , you did mention upthread this:

The therapist and I also talked about my traumatic experiences in the past have shaped my personality and are likely one of the driving factors in my strong sex drive. I wonder if as we progress in therapy and there are other avenues of emotional connection in a safe way, if sex might become less of a major issue for me.

And I think it's important. Ultimately, you cannot change - or really affect - your wife's decisions. What you do have control over is yourself, your actions, your recovery.

My issues are as follows:

* I need to feel wanted and desired more strongly that is normal for the average person due to the chronic abuse I had a child.
* I have difficulty experiencing healthy emotion due to the protection mechanisms I developed as a child.
* I have moderate feelings of panic if I am in any sort of trouble or blamed for a mistake
* I have trouble making friends and getting close to people (trust, self-protection and other issues)
* I have difficulty accepting and trusting change in those I'm close with, using the past as a concrete method of predicting future behavior.

Read over this list and you will find positive things to work on in therapy, not status-quo items that your wife should be expected to support. As much as you can talk about her unwillingness, I have to ask: how much is engendered by you? You are clearly self-aware. If you admittedly have trouble with trust and growth, is it not possible that your wife is also attuned to that?

I don't think women need to feel love to have sex; I don't. But feeling safe and free enough to give over to sensation is hard when you know the other person isn't feeling that way. Although you have a high drive, I wonder how satisfactory your orgasms are. Do you experience them physically and fully, or more peripherally, with your expectation stopping at ejaculation?

I'm not sure I'm articulating myself well and this is absolutely not meant as an attack. Really, we are talking about her a great deal, but you are the one in the thread - and you are the one struggling most intensely with the problem.

So it's important to look at the changes you are working towards:

• more balanced needs re: being wanted and desired
• experience of healthy emotion freely
• fear of failure
• fear of intimacy
• openness to change

(These are taken from your self-analysis, above)

 

[thisbejoe7]

And I think it's important. Ultimately, you cannot change - or really affect - your wife's decisions. What you do have control over is yourself, your actions, your recovery.

Yes you are absolutely correct. Something I've struggled to come to terms with a few years ago was that very fact. I cannot change my wife, I can only change myself. For the last 5 years I've been working on myself, growing and self-analyzing and trying to be a better and more healthy individual. I have given up that initial drive to change my wife. I do love and accept her as she is, which is one reason we are still married. But I do not think its healthy for me to enable her to remain where she is and never grow or resolve her issues either. I want to provide a healthy and safe place for her to explore her own issues in the context of our relationship. In fact, if you were to ask her if I've changed a lot in the last few years, she would say yes. I know this because I've asked her.

Read over this list and you will find positive things to work on in therapy, not status-quo items that your wife should be expected to support. As much as you can talk about her unwillingness, I have to ask: how much is engendered by you? You are clearly self-aware. If you admittedly have trouble with trust and growth, is it not possible that your wife is also attuned to that?

That list was created from the items we've discussed in therapy already. I'm sure there are more things I could add, but that can happen over time as we explore the issues. To answer your question about issues being engendered by me, I'm sure there are some nuanced realities that this is true of, however in our story her behavior was for the most part like this from the very start. I don't know if you read my earlier posts or not but I talked about our early relationship and how things changed once married. My issues (I think) have helped to perpetuate the dysfunction and of course I add my own layer of dysfunction as well. I've tried to list the issues that my wife struggles with along with the issues that I struggle with. This is not a one sided issue, the problems are many and shared between us both.

I don't think women need to feel love to have sex; I don't. But feeling safe and free enough to give over to sensation is hard when you know the other person isn't feeling that way. Although you have a high drive, I wonder how satisfactory your orgasms are. Do you experience them physically and fully, or more peripherally, with your expectation stopping at ejaculation?

I agree, feeling loved is not a requirement for sex for either gender. And you are absolutely right that a safe environment is required (generally speaking) for women to feel like they can really explore and discover their sexuality.

As far as my orgasms go, like most people they vary based on the quality of the experience. In some of our best sexual experiences, they are quite intense and enjoyable. During a one sided quicky, its more like relieving an itch, satisfying a basic physical need. Its good, but its not amazing. Relating to how I experience them, I'm very sensual so its a mix of physically experiencing them but also its also emotional, spiritual and involves all my senses. And no my expectations don't stop at ejaculation. I am a multi orgasmic male with little or no refractory period. So there is no physical need to stop at any point. But my limits have never been tested given the sexual situation I'm in. For me sex and orgasm is a holistic thing, it is so complex and so deeply meaningful and yet also very physical and sensual. Its very hard to explain. One last thing, I don't enjoy one sided pleasure. I much more greatly enjoy sex/orgasm when my wife is into it and enjoying it as well. Some of our most intense, most enjoyable, most passionate sex involves some unique experiences and simultaneous orgasms. In fact, early on we assumed that was the point. So when she would allow herself to have an orgasm, we always tried to time ours together.

I'm not sure I'm articulating myself well and this is absolutely not meant as an attack. Really, we are talking about her a great deal, but you are the one in the thread - and you are the one struggling most intensely with the problem.

So it's important to look at the changes you are working towards:

• more balanced needs re: being wanted and desired
• experience of healthy emotion freely
• fear of failure
• fear of intimacy
• openness to change

(These are taken from your self-analysis, above)

I think you articulated well enough, pretty sure I got what you were trying to say and I did not take offense to anything you said. Its my fault that this "seems" like we are talking mostly about my wife and her issues. That wasn't my intention. I'm getting a lot of questions about her and sex in general so that may be part of it. Only in the last page or so has anyone been asking about me. I just want to reiterate that I am not saying our issues are solely her problem. We both have issues and play a role in this relationship and are both working on them through therapy. Its also hard to convey my wife's struggle in all of this, as you said she's not here, I am. She struggle a great deal and often gets very emotional when we discuss them. Even if I say nothing and she just starts communicating her problems to me, she will break down and cry. I try to be as supportive as I can, and I struggle not to lose myself in that as well. Its easy to feel like her problems are so big, there just isn't any room for me to have any issues.

Your list of items is good, and those are all things we are addressing in therapy.

Thanks!

 

[cherryblossom]

I would just like to apologise, if I took this thread off topic, by talking more about your wife than you and the original topic in the thread title.

I sincerely hope that you both find a mutually agreeable solution, that makes you both happy for many years to come.

 

[joeylittle]

It would be wonderful if you and she could start at some kind of square one together, sexually. Some kind of progression where you were not the person pulling on the direction of the experience; something where she could also be starting something new.

I completely understand your frustration at feeling like you are moving forward in therapy, and that she is now your "brick wall", or next major hurdle. I'm glad you are able to understand this:

My issues (I think) have helped to perpetuate the dysfunction and of course I add my own layer of dysfunction as well. I've tried to list the issues that my wife struggles with along with the issues that I struggle with. This is not a one sided issue, the problems are many and shared between us both.

Again, not because it's only you who has to work on things, but because it's so important to recognize always ones own contribution to any relationship dynamic.

There is an aspect of your thinking that others have pointed out, and I (as someone with female plumbing) consider it supremely flawed.

Some of our most intense, most enjoyable, most passionate sex involves some unique experiences and simultaneous orgasms. In fact, early on we assumed that was the point. So when she would allow herself to have an orgasm, we always tried to time ours together.

I added the bold for emphasis. I cannot think of a time where a woman struggling with orgasm could describe it as "I allow it" or "I don't allow it". Women who are easily orgasmic can do this, but I dare say the vast majority of us spend large parts of our lives chasing the orgasm that is constantly eluding us.

This might ring a bell for me because my own ex was very, very certain in his soul - no matter how much I tried to explain it to him - that I was deciding to not climax. That it was my choice, my avoidance or refusal. He wasn't cruel about it, but he was deeply frustrated.

For my part: I had absolutely no idea how to complete an orgasm, with or without him. I have nerve damage that makes it challenging, I have a very small and recessed clitoris, and I had problems with the way he expressed intimacy and initiated sex. Put all that together and I only had one orgasm in our 10 years of marriage. It happened inside the first year, and then I spent 9 years trying to re-create it.

When I finally separated from him - that was the time I could tell him the truth about it. I had been faking things very effectively for almost a decade. It was a painful thing to share, and our devastatingly false sex life was a major reason I needed to leave.

Since then I've done some dating and had some very satisfying sex with men I've only just begun to know. Dysfunctional as it is, I know so far that the first time with a new partner is the time I can actually be free to let my imagination participate enough to compensate for my lack of sensation. If I ever ended up in a long term relationship again (something I doubt but wish for), it would have to be with someone I was incredibly moved by sexually as well as in all the other ways.

Back to you: I think you are making some assumptions about your wife's inner experience and truth about these things. I don't think at all you are doing it from a purposefully bad place - but you could stand to learn a whole lot more about female sexuality, comfort, and psychology.

This will sound very common, but have you read "The Feminine Mystique"? I also liked "The Elusive Orgasm". Both deal with female psychology and anatomy in a way that is very (I think) illuminating.

Back to my opening premise: something new that the two of you could learn together, perhaps a mindfulness approach to sex, maybe trying out the Tantra.

Might your therapist be able to recommend some titles for both your learning and for the two of you, a whole new thing?

 

[thisbejoe7]

It would be wonderful if you and she could start at some kind of square one together, sexually. Some kind of progression where you were not the person pulling on the direction of the experience; something where she could also be starting something new.

Thats also my hope as well. The therapist said that my wife has not had the phase of self sexual discovery that most people have growing up. So there is some sexual immaturity going on that will be addressed as we progress in therapy. I hope that helps. One person can't create a new experience and force it on the other person, it takes two to make that work.

There is an aspect of your thinking that others have pointed out, and I (as someone with female plumbing) consider it supremely flawed.

Does this have to do with the importance of sex in the relationship? I am persuaded that what I've said about this topic is true, but I do understand that there are various "theories" about sexuality. I'm just trying to approach it from a biological and health perspective. There are some human behaviors that attempt to override the biological parts.

I added the bold for emphasis. I cannot think of a time where a woman struggling with orgasm could describe it as "I allow it" or "I don't allow it". Women who are easily orgasmic can do this, but I dare say the vast majority of us spend large parts of our lives chasing the orgasm that is constantly eluding us.

I tried to explain this earlier in the thread. There has never been a problem with my wife reaching orgasm. In fact she is what most people would consider easily orgasmic. There are no physical problems of road blocks, and when she gives me permission to attempt to stimulate her to orgasm, it can take as little as 2 minutes, never fails. The issue here is that she doesn't consider sexual pleasure something worth her time, so she doesn't pursue it. So this means that when we have sex, she is practically choosing not to share her pleasure with me, she's deliberately choosing not to have an orgasm. Its not that she can't or is just having difficulty. She is actually choosing not to, because she doesn't value the orgasm. She has a sort of inner road block that if something feels good she wants to pull away from it and limit it, it seems like its almost scary for her. She has in fact told me that she is afraid to enjoy sex. So I think the issue for us is a bit different than what you are speaking of.

This might ring a bell for me because my own ex was very, very certain in his soul - no matter how much I tried to explain it to him - that I was deciding to not climax. That it was my choice, my avoidance or refusal. He wasn't cruel about it, but he was deeply frustrated.

I'm so sorry to hear that you two never could come to a mutual understanding about this. I'm sure that was a huge source of contention and frustration on both your parts. I'm well aware of the stats on female orgasm, and the various issues that some women have achieving it. I consider us very lucky that my wife can be easily orgasmic. Its quite a blessing, one that she is avoiding and throwing away quite frequently.

For my part: I had absolutely no idea how to complete an orgasm, with or without him. I have nerve damage that makes it challenging, I have a very small and recessed clitoris, and I had problems with the way he expressed intimacy and initiated sex. Put all that together and I only had one orgasm in our 10 years of marriage. It happened inside the first year, and then I spent 9 years trying to re-create it.

WOW that is terrible, I'm so so sorry to hear this. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for you individually. Orgasm difficulties can be a real strain on relationships too.

Back to you: I think you are making some assumptions about your wife's inner experience and truth about these things. I don't think at all you are doing it from a purposefully bad place - but you could stand to learn a whole lot more about female sexuality, comfort, and psychology.

I will admit there is always more I can learn and I am always exploring and learning, which I love. But I have to disagree with this in a way. I have spent years studying human sexuality, reading books, listening to podcasts by sex experts, blogs, forums, seminars, conferences, etc. I am very familiar with human sexuality, female sexual response, psychology aspects of sex, etc. I think this has actually been a benefit for me because it helps me understand that objectively speaking my wife's lack of interest in sexual pleasure is not a personal offense. It has nothing to do with me at all. This is an issue that she needs to work through for herself. Our therapist has been asking her "why" questions about masturbation, orgasm and sex. The hope is that my wife can go through a process of self-sexual discover and exploration and find what she wants, likes and needs for herself as an individual. Due to her upbringing and the age we got married, she just never had that.

This will sound very common, but have you read "The Feminine Mystique"? I also liked "The Elusive Orgasm". Both deal with female psychology and anatomy in a way that is very (I think) illuminating.

I have never heard of "The Feminine Mystique" but I have read "The Elusive Orgasm". Beyond that I have read many other good books and science articles/studies about female sexuality. Most of what my wife knows of her sexuality, she learned from me. That may sound weird, but she would even tell you that if you asked her.

Back to my opening premise: something new that the two of you could learn together, perhaps a mindfulness approach to sex, maybe trying out the Tantra.

The therapist we are seeing suggested we try sensate focus exercises and we also talked about some form of Kama Sutra experiences, but we haven't yet done any of that. My wife honestly isn't ready for anything new or advanced. She has to start the beginning and go from there, it will be a long and slow process I suspect.

 

[joeylittle]

But can't you see how much you are assuming about her? I think it's possible you don't know as much about what's going on in her head as you think - or, rather: have you seriously questioned your assumptions?

Does this have to do with the importance of sex in the relationship?

Nope; I am of the opinion that the thing we call sex (which is not limited to traditional M/F intercourse) is essential to a relationship. It's just my opinion, and likely rooted in my life experiences - but we are on the same side of the table when it comes to that.

Honestly: how do you know this:

There has never been a problem with my wife reaching orgasm. In fact she is what most people would consider easily orgasmic. There are no physical problems of road blocks, and when she gives me permission to attempt to stimulate her to orgasm, it can take as little as 2 minutes, never fails.

Is true?

You said your wife was your first everything, right? I'm not sure how you can be positive she's not faking it. I'm not trying to be awful, just honest. My ex was relatively sexually experienced and I faked it for years. It's not just a question of moaning - we can make all our muscles move if we want to. Being non-orgasmic is one of the most painfully humiliating things for a woman, and it's entirely possible that your wife is within those statistics.

Even if that's not the case, this:

The issue here is that she doesn't consider sexual pleasure something worth her time, so she doesn't pursue it. ...she is actually choosing not to, because she doesn't value the orgasm. She has a sort of inner road block that if something feels good she wants to pull away from it and limit it, it seems like its almost scary for her.

Is presuming that she experiences pleasure from the orgasm. In female sexual response, an orgasm is not necessarily tied to pleasurable sensation. An orgasm can occur and you just feel something like cramps. Whether this is because of a mental block or an actual issue in the neurophysiology - the fact is, it is true.

It might not be that she doesn't value the orgasm - it might be that she is experiencing discomfort, even pain; and this is assuming she's actually having them in the first place.

This:

she has in fact told me that she is afraid to enjoy sex.

Could be the closest that she's come to the truth. Because if sex is generally painful, requires lying (faking it) in order to make it be over OR creates physical discomfort, not pleasure: those are all very real reasons to be afraid; either of the act itself or simply telling you she is afraid she cannot enjoy sex.

I consider us very lucky that my wife can be easily orgasmic. Its quite a blessing, one that she is avoiding and throwing away quite frequently.

But really - you don't know she is easily orgasmic, you don't know she is choosing to throw it away.

I'm not trying to beat you up. I honestly think you will be able to get to a better place for yourself in working through this issue with your wife if you can back up and assume you know nothing about her actual experience. You will then be able to start from the same place; especially if she can also assume she knows nothing about your inner experience.

The hope is that my wife can go through a process of self-sexual discover and exploration and find what she wants, likes and needs for herself as an individual. Due to her upbringing and the age we got married, she just never had that.

This sounds awesome and right on point. All I am suggesting is that you have assumed you know more about her sexuality than SHE does. And you continue to assert that throughout this thread. It's a problem, I swear to you.

Besides: you can't possibly think you know everything about your own sexuality, either - right? There is space for you to learn more about your own wants and needs. I get that the dynamic of the relationship (sexually) has left you both stuck in "roles" - you are the open, experienced, expert and she is the frightened, closed-off dysfunctional one. Unless you are willing to give up those roles - both of you -you won't get anywhere.

You and she could read The Feminine Mystique together, along with its counterpart concerning male social-sexual development (that book would have been written in the last 10 years probably). Or she can read it and share with you. Because I guarantee that this:

Most of what my wife knows of her sexuality, she learned from me. That may sound weird, but she would even tell you that if you asked her.

Is a huge problem; both that you would say that and she would agree. I strongly, strongly suspect she is not telling you the full truth of her experience, and I think you are catering to that.

Are you only focusing on sex, or are you doing all levels of relationship counseling? There could be a larger dynamic at play in the relationship, and sex is where it us manifesting most clearly as a problem.

Thank you for your kind words about my own woes with my ex. It really was awful; and the more set our roles became, the more impossible it seemed to break through it. That's why I think it's so great you are working on this, and so important that you really start from scratch and dump everything you think you know, so you can start understanding what is true, now - for both you and her.

 

[thisbejoe7]

But can't you see how much you are assuming about her? I think it's possible you don't know as much about what's going on in her head as you think - or, rather: have you seriously questioned your assumptions?

I'm sure there are some assumptions buried in there somewhere, but the bulk of what I'm saying was learned through actual experience, being with her, experiencing her, talking to her, etc. I'm not assuming things out of thin air, everything I'm saying is based on actual experience and as much feedback and input from her as I've been able to get. Yes I do question my assumptions and am always looking to get at the truth and not just what I'd prefer.

Honestly: how do you know this:

Again this was all learned through experience. The very first time we had any sexual contact she gushed and experienced female ejaculation. Through oral, manual and other means she has easily reached orgasm consistently. And yes I know the difference between the fake stuff and a real orgasm.

You said your wife was your first everything, right? I'm not sure how you can be positive she's not faking it. I'm not trying to be awful, just honest. My ex was relatively sexually experienced and I faked it for years. It's not just a question of moaning - we can make all our muscles move if we want to. Being non-orgasmic is one of the most painfully humiliating things for a woman, and it's entirely possible that your wife is within those statistics.

Yes we were virgins when we met. I am 100% sure she has never faked anything. Its very hard to fake female ejaculation, the increase in vaginal wetness, blood flushing the skin, and other physical signs of orgasm. I don't take offense to anything you've said, no worries. I realize that some guys are very naive about female sexuality, but I can assure you that I am well researched on the matter. We have talked about faking before several times and she also tells me that she has never had to fake anything and wouldn't even if she had an opportunity. A couple of times (extremely rarely) she has asked me to stop what we were doing because she couldn't reach orgasm, and its not a problem for either of us. Its less than 5 times for sure out of 15 years of sex. she just wouldn't be the kind of person who would fake it and really hasn't had any need to do so.

I've been a student of her body for as long as I can remember. She tells me that I'm very good at making her feel good and have helped her to discover more and more amazing forms of sexual pleasure as we explored her ability to squirt, along with other means of stimulating her like gspot exploration and so on. By the way, her gspot is only detectable if she is turned on physically, and when we explore it, she can experience female ejaculation and intense deep/full body orgasms. It is simply unmistakable.

I'm really sorry that orgasm has been such a struggle for you. Trust me I realize that would be crushing in various situations.

Is presuming that she experiences pleasure from the orgasm. In female sexual response, an orgasm is not necessarily tied to pleasurable sensation. An orgasm can occur and you just feel something like cramps. Whether this is because of a mental block or an actual issue in the neurophysiology - the fact is, it is true.

She is definitely experiencing pleasure from the orgasms. She can hardly breathe when she has an orgasm its so intensely pleasurable. She says it feel amazing, and can experience different levels and types of orgasms. From small vibe induced orgasms, to passionate drawn out sex/touching induced orgasms, to multiple orgasms. Another sign is that they sneak up on her occasionally. One time during sex, we had just finished and I hadn't withdrawn yet. I adjusted my position a little and thrusted again for a moment when she said "wow" and proceeded to have a second orgasm out of nowhere. She told me it was happening and the signs were there, she wasn't expecting it and wasn't trying for it.

Other times too we've had circumstances that were new and fun, as I've said we have had a few good sex memories. There have been times her orgasms result from only intercourse, even one memory where she had a very unexpected orgasm immediately upon penetration after about an hour of foreplay.

I say all that just to bolster what I said about being certain she is enjoying them when she lets herself have one. Aside from a negligible couple of times in 15 years we've been having sex, she can enjoy physically easy to reach orgasms of various types and intensities without pain or any reason to fake it.

It might not be that she doesn't value the orgasm - it might be that she is experiencing discomfort, even pain; and this is assuming she's actually having them in the first place.

That was probably true for the first few months we began having sex. She did have acute pain when we had sex for a short time. That subsided on its own and hasn't been a problem for many years. We almost always use lube unless its not necessary from her being highly aroused. She shows no signs of any discomfort, and she tells me it feels great.

Could be the closest that she's come to the truth. Because if sex is generally painful, requires lying (faking it) in order to make it be over OR creates physical discomfort, not pleasure: those are all very real reasons to be afraid; either of the act itself or simply telling you she is afraid she cannot enjoy sex.

I totally agree with you, if that were the case, I could understand how sex would not be desirable and would be a huge opportunity to fake it.

But really - you don't know she is easily orgasmic, you don't know she is choosing to throw it away.

I'm convinced that she is one of the lucky group of women who are easily orgasmic. Which if true, validates what I said about her basically throwing sexual pleasure away, or at least her potential for enjoying it.

This sounds awesome and right on point. All I am suggesting is that you have assumed you know more about her sexuality than SHE does. And you continue to assert that throughout this thread. It's a problem, I swear to you.

Since what I know is based on direct observation and experience and her telling me whats going on, I'm very confident that what I've said is true. I'm not saying I know more about what she's experiencing than she does. I'm just saying that I know more about female sexuality in general than she does. Simply because she doesn't care and won't really do any reading on the matter.

Besides: you can't possibly think you know everything about your own sexuality, either - right? There is space for you to learn more about your own wants and needs. I get that the dynamic of the relationship (sexually) has left you both stuck in "roles" - you are the open, experienced, expert and she is the frightened, closed-off dysfunctional one. Unless you are willing to give up those roles - both of you -you won't get anywhere.

No of course not. There is far too much I've never experienced sexually to ever think that I know everything about my own sexuality. There is always room to learn and explore and I hope one day she will go on that journey with me as an eager and willing participant/companion. The roles concept is accurate too, I do struggle to accept or trust that when I see a small change in her behavior - that it is genuine and lasting. My perceptions of her will need to change as we progress through our therapy.

Are you only focusing on sex, or are you doing all levels of relationship counseling? There could be a larger dynamic at play in the relationship, and sex is where it us manifesting most clearly as a problem.

No we are not only focusing on sex. We are addressing areas of communication, emotional regulation, PTSD therapy for me, and general couples counseling as well. The sexual stuff is just a perk of finding a therapist who specializes in trauma and couples therapy (sex therapy).

Thank you for your kind words about my own woes with my ex. It really was awful; and the more set our roles became, the more impossible it seemed to break through it. That's why I think it's so great you are working on this, and so important that you really start from scratch and dump everything you think you know, so you can start understanding what is true, now - for both you and her.

I feel so sorry for women who suffer like this in relationships with naive and selfish guys. I also get mad at these guys and wish there was some way other men who get it could give them a nice bonk on the head to snap them out of their funk or take them behind the woodshed for some "conversation". I get what you are saying and where you are coming from on these issues, and I appreciate your input. I think you make some good points and we are definitely working on those things in therapy.