Mdma

[Dana1010]

@anthony,

 

[anthony]

There is no medical cure for PTSD... so firstly I put nothing into the above. That is marketing nonsense to get your attention, that's all it is. You have one person here claiming she is cured... what about today? Has she endured more stress, another traumatic event and symptoms returned? Has she experienced any residual symptoms since 2005 and her claim to be cured?

This is no different than the spinal block being a cure. Guess what? So far it has failed as a cure too, even though it claimed such. This lady was on 15 prescription medications... do you think PTSD was her problem or her medication? I would opt for the latter being the issue of her prolonged suffering.

 

[anthony]

There have been many severe combat veterans try MDMA in clinical studies, and the outcomes for lowering overall symptom severity were excellent, but the symptoms lowered because the MDMA was used in therapy sessions and they got out of them all this trauma they had held onto. They completed many of their fragmented memories and put them aside. None of them (studies) claimed PTSD was cured... but some certainly no longer met diagnosis for PTSD, which is the whole idea of trauma therapy... to treat the underlying cause, trauma, and thus it removes the symptoms and so you no longer have a PTSD diagnosis.

PTSD is still inside you and will jump you again if you endure more trauma, maybe worse, maybe not...

People think because they no longer meet PTSD diagnosis that their cured. This woman is just one of them. That is not factual. The whole idea of treatment is to no longer meet diagnostic criterion. That is the goal to be achieved... but one should never confuse that with being cured, because that is medically incorrect.

IMO MDMA should be administered in therapy with trauma patients... I think it would help cut through many issues therapists deal with, speedup the trauma therapy process and more positive results would be occurring faster.

Saying that... if you do some reading you will find the MDMA used is not ecstasy as such, it is a pure form of the main ingredient used in ecstasy. It doesn't contain all the harmful nonsense contained in the street drug.

 

[anthony]

@anthony

An even better response to your video is this... give me something evidence based please. A radio interview is not evidence based. Show me the studies, as I've read a few of them myself... and I'm not reading anything citing a cure for PTSD, but certainly positive results for trauma treatment and thus lowering any experienced symptoms due to the trauma.

 

[Dana1010]

I'm not reading anything citing a cure for PTSD, but certainly positive results for trauma treatment

Anthony, do you know that the T in PTSD stands for traumatic? How is the treatment of PTSD different from trauma treatment? I'm not claiming MDMA is a cure - perhaps the title of the video is a bit much. And I agree that no longer meeting the diagnosis for PTSD isn't necessarily the same as being cured but it's a damn good start.

PTSD is still inside you and will jump you again if you endure more trauma, maybe worse, maybe not...

I don't know if you're qualified to say this with the certainty of a scientist or doctor.

And it was superfluous for you to point out that buying adulterated MDMA sold as ecstasy on the street is dangerous, because.....

Obviously, I don't condone people buying illegal substances which could be adulterated and dangerous.

 

[anthony]

Anthony, do you know that the T in PTSD stands for traumatic? How is the treatment of PTSD different from trauma treatment?

If you talk with trauma experts they will tell you what I'm telling you now... PTSD and trauma are two separate issues. You endure trauma which affects you and thus causes a change in your brain to now develop further complications, being PTSD and associated disorders. You can completely remove PTSD and associated disorders through trauma therapy, BUT, you aren't treating PTSD, you're treating the underlying cause, being trauma. You only learn how to adapt and manage PTSD the disorder, being that you change how you approach life situations so that you don't endure symptoms, i.e. exposure therapy to triggers, stressor intake, anti-depression protocols such as activity, weight control, so forth.

These are the scientific foundations to PTSD, which haven't really changed much to date.

I don't know if you're qualified to say this with the certainty of a scientist or doctor.

Actually... do a little research and that is exactly where I found that information. I'm not qualified for anything, which I readily state, so I'm unsure why you even say such things to me. I read the experts and regurgitate what they say, actual well documented information only, not one off studies or hacks, and give it to people in layman's terms. Nothing more, nothing less.

Read the PTSD studies attached to the PTSD page in the vault. Read books from leading trauma experts on PTSD, and you will near read that statement in each one. Experts cite that PTSD has no cure, and once your brain has changed to develop it, you can only heal the trauma to lower the symptoms, then learn how to change your stress response to life situations in order to no longer have ongoing symptoms in day to day life. Therapy has never treated PTSD... it treats the underlying cause.

Google about how a director of the US VA system was fired for publicly stating years ago that PTSD could be cured. Medicine is quite contradictory. When it changes, I will certainly change my statement accordingly.

If you want to look at some of the more dedicated researchers in this area, maybe look at Link Removed if you haven't already. They also cite the information accurately, being MDMA assisted psychotherapy, and not MDMA to treat PTSD or such.

The theory of treatment works something along these lines... of the 100% of PTSD sufferers, statistically about 94% of them can completely recover and no longer endure any ongoing issues. When faced with another traumatic event, depending on the event itself and how they deal with it, will depend on whether PTSD symptoms return, or not, and whether they're worse or not. Scientific statistics on that data is quite compelling that the majority typically endure worse symptoms with each ongoing trauma, and as they compound each time, more often the past trauma returns as well, even though previously treated.

Why 94%? Because scientifically documented statistics have the life-time PTSD rate hovering around that 5 - 6% mark. Now that doesn't mean some of that category also can't completely heal their symptoms and then get back on with life... because they can. You will always have people moving from the majority to the minority with compounding life trauma, as you also have those classified with life PTSD who free themselves of the constant suffering and heal their trauma, learn how to manage PTSD better, and suddenly remove themselves from those shackles.

I've been watching the MDMA science for a while now, as it was quite promising right from the get go... its just all the myths and un-factual aspects people perpetuate from reading into something that doesn't say what they're interpreting. If you read the past discussion on this, you would have read lots of nonsense people interpreted and posted, such as going to their local ecstasy dealer and start taking it immediately, to only discover they just became a drug addict and their problems got worse.

The below image from the above link, shows exactly what I mean about symptoms not fully subsiding. The positive is that 83% of 20 participants no longer met the criteria for PTSD, which is excellent. But they still endure symptoms, just not the severity for diagnosis. Again... PTSD can't be cured and never goes away fully. You lower the symptoms to no longer meet the threshold...

Now those results are still outstanding, no doubt about it... which is why IMHO MDMA should be used in all trauma psychotherapy ASAP.

 

[Philippa]

Taking it outside of therapy to get high, numb pain, etc, just makes the user a drug addict and another complication to withdraw from, let alone the long-term damage it causes, resulting in death.

If it were the case that someone took MDMA every single day, and this went on for months and months, or years even, then you could classify them as a drug addict. Taking it once or twice here and there to get high or numb out, in a recreational setting would make them a drug user, but not an addict. Numbing out is self medication, but not everyone needs to do that on a regular basis.

It may just be a one off for some people. I agree with you about it being one more thing to deal with on top of the persons actual issues...but that is only if the person is taking it so regularly that they cannot function without it...and that doesn't happen with most MDMA users.

@Dana1010 as far as that video goes, I watched it recently and for me, evidence is good and important, but I also go by what the person has experienced and if that woman says her life is pretty much back to normal and has not had any more recurring symptoms since undergoing treatment with the assistance of MDMA in a therapeutic context, then that is good enough for me.

It doesn't mean that it will be the case for every single person who tries MDMA in this way, but at least for her it worked...and I don't need a scientist to prove it to me if she says it worked. I've taken MDMA before and it's wonderful for opening the heart and relaxing people so they feel they can discuss anything that comes up, with friends, or even just strangers in a club, and that can be therapeutic in itself. I can see how it would be immensely helpful with the guidance of a therapist.

 

[Hashi]

How do you literally walk away? Does that mean my hankering to leave town on the next plane out of here is on point?

I'm afraid I doubt it. "Hankering", "next plane" and "out of here" aren't suggesting an empowering, positive, symbolic action.

But thinking about what it is that you want to leave and doing a symbolic act to leave it, would be something else. This can be as simple as writing it down and then mindfully burning or shredding it. The symbolic act of walking away might be walking away to the other side of the room.

Literally relocating can be powerful if it's thought through, feasible and mindful. Otherwise, probably not. Sorry.

 

[Dana1010]

@Hashi, I was being hyperbolic in the statement you quoted. I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on relocating though.

 

[Hashi]

Would you like to say your thoughts about relocating?

 

[Dana1010]

@Hashi, To avoid completely hijacking my own thread, I'll link to a discussion I started on the topic recently. https://www.myptsd.com/threads/really-wanting-to-leave-town.46997/

You can scan my posts there to get an idea of where I'm coming from, and then offer your opinion. I appreciate it.

 

[Friday]

@FridayJones, wow, you seem really uneasy about therapists. I'm sorry if you've had creepy experiences that led you to that state of anxiety. Anyway, I gather that they're not manipulating you, they're just letting you remember and talk about things in a non freaked-out state.

LOL... I'm uneasy about people, in general, not therapists in particular. #TrustIssues

My personal view of therapists is that they're that incredibly amazing close friend, who happens to be highly educated, and deeply experienced with exactly what your dealing with... That you just didn't happen to meet on the street 5 years ago. Since I didn't meet them socially, I'm now engaging their services professionally. It's a biased view, for sure, but when I've had that close circle of friends who were all of the above (rare enough)... I didn't need therapy. Because I was getting it. Just from other quadrants. I've mostly had phenom experiences with counselors.

Therapists are trained manipulators, though. The better the therapist the more highly skilled their technique. Manipulation isn't good or bad in and of itself... Put to good use it makes someone re-examine their view of the world and themselves and their place in it. Of course, put to bad use, the same thing happens.

I was being tongue in cheek about strangers at a club (not safe at all), but the key difference there is that unless there is someone trying to convince me to go roll in the hay, the motivations of people at a club are pretty simple, straight forward, and self focused. No one there is trying to change my world view. They're there for themselves. Where therapy makes me edgy is that the focus there is on changing my world view. And I don't always, or even usually, agree with the other person's view of the world. I don't want their view. So medicating myself with the intent of taking on someone else's view of things makes me nervous. There is simply a lot of room for error with all that subjectivity. Again, this is just me, and my personal preference. Not what I believe anyone else should do.