Structural Dissociation?

[Eleanor]

Always felt like I SHOULD play but just couldn't do much more than play along

I suffer over this. I TRY to play. And I just... want to get the hell out of there. My mind just... shears off... It is horrible. Torture.

that part needs you to hang out with her and explain it so s/he gets it. Because it so does count. Really.

I guess that's the bit that learned that stuff like this counts for other people. Just not me. (sigh) I really DO think it counts for other people. But boy it is hard to get that it counts for me.

 

[Valentino]

It took me some time to digest Panksepp's 7 core emotional networks, and try to reconcile that with other experts, research, neuroscience, along with my own experience and understanding.

But, here's some of my take on how the 7 emotional systems of SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, PANIC/GRIEF, PLAY, LUST, and CARE seem to work together.

First of all, I think PANIC is better labeled as GRIEF, he even describes it as separation anxiety, and the emergent emotions he associates with it are: separation distress, sadness, guilt/shame, shyness, and embarrassment.

When the brain is more integrated and feels safe in the environment, the 3 emotions of SEEKING, PLAY, and CARE are able to be fully active and functional.

But with PTSD those 3 circuits are limited or disengaged, with the nervous system directing attention towards instinctual & survival systems.

The Fight, Flight, or Freeze instinctual responses can match with the RAGE, FEAR, and PANIC/GRIEF systems... LUST fits in as a pleasure/hoarding/greed type escapism emotion that also links with sexual desire.

My take is that ANP are typically identified with RAGE or FEAR emotional circuitry...

RAGE based ANP would be variations of control, manipulation, perfection, defense, aggression, blame (self or other), keeping active/busy, etc.

FEAR based ANP would be variations of avoidance, conflict averse, people pleasing, rescuing others, prevention, anxiety, over thinking, isolation, etc.

I suppose ANP could also be associated with other emotions, like LUST where a person's focus is all around jealousy, greed, hoarding, and earthly sensation and pleasures. But I don't see that as a very common primary personality.. or possibly PANIC/GRIEF with someone who's lost in depression with some sort of identity wrapped around helpless victim, but that might be more a merging of FEAR with PANIC/GRIEF flavor..

A theory as to why it might be hard to access CARE, PLAY, or SEEKING (I see this more as childlike curiosity and sense of adventure) circuits. It's simply because survival instincts are triggered. Until there is a sense of safety, security, predictability, order, and calm. The limbic/neo-mammalian/sympathetic(nervous system) fight/flight brain is still activated, along with the even more primal reptilian/parasympathetic(nervous system) freeze/dissociative brain.

As for EP's and Panksepp's emotions, I'm not as sure how they might fit in... I think EP's might be more of symptom of implicit memories that didn't get processed and resolved into explicit memories. Implicit memories are like fear conditioning, cellular memory, procedural memory, muscle memory, memories still stored in the body that aren't fully integrated at the level of conscious thought and memory.

When memories don't get properly integrated into conscious memory because the trauma or dissociation response takes over. I'm guessing that these memories tend to clump together around similar emotional suffering or inner children personas.

Some of my recent past EPs were around overwhelm/overload, fear of rejection, social exclusion, right to have my own opinion... earlier EPs that seemed to have less of a personality were around raw hopelessness, fear of living, raw confusion and uncertainty, detachment/isolation.

As I integrated more of my EPs or unresolved emotional suffering, often there was a feeling of lightness, a feeling of deep understanding or an insight high. I often also had feelings that seemed to give me more access to the PLAY, CARE, and SEEKING circuits, childlike wonder, laughter, fearless play, sense of adventure, or higher sense of natural curiosity.

Ironically, the more I understand about the healing and integration process, the more it seems to point towards the PANIC/GRIEF emotional network (ie. the Parasympathetic nervous system, the reptile brain, freeze/dissociation response). This system seems to be the source of what short-circuits the higher brain functions, and fractures conscious memory integration. It's a very primitive network that was probably quite effective for survival on it's own, but can get in the way with surviving in a much more complex, social, and interconnected modern world. But this system also has positive benefits of restorative, rest & rebuild, reflective, retreat, recover, conscious awareness, meditative states, deep peace, calm, etc.

So the eventual part of the re-integration and healing process seems to use the PANIC/GRIEF circuits, to give an 'end of story' to all those unprocessed memories. With empathy, compassion, and some sort of external support, that can allow courage with a sense of safety to consciously venture into the PANIC/GRIEF network, to help guide it, learn from it, and allow it to integrate unresolved griefs into conscious memory, and genuinely put the past into the past.

 

[Pencil]

But somehow, just regular old emotional neglect where no one is actually mean to you... seems like it doesn't count. Intellectually I can see how this is pure bunk. But there is part of me that still seriously does not "get it."

Hacking a plant to pieces is clearly 'abuse', but how about simply not watering it? Or keeping a plant that needs sun in a planter in the shade, and simply not bothering to move it into the sun. You're right it is invisible - it is 'not there'. In other words, when you chop off a healthy tree, the damage is seen. Whereas, when you look at a puny plant, you can't see the plant it could have been.

 

[shimmerz]

Jeez, I could sit back all day and read your posts guys. You are all so much better at words. I am going to try to articulate my thoughts without being all scattered.

Curious... How long has it taken folk to figure out their AP and EP parts?

I always thought of my 'parts' as a form of regression. I couldn't figure out the uber capable one though. She totally left me when I had my breakdown and I felt like in order to get healthy I had to get her back! Then I read about this model. I realized that although she seemed to be able to cope in this world (very well I might add), that she was not whole. She was bound to crack under the pressure somewhere along the line.

I had been told over and over again that I was regressing but that didn't quite fit for me. She was running (and ruining) my life right here, right now, and I was angry at her because she was trying to kill me and was seriously compromising my life. How the hell do I love her when she is driving me out and trying to die? It was impossible to do. Inner child is not how I see this any longer. I see her, other EP's, and my ANP as a part of a whole. That whole is my core.

A while back in this thread I spoke about Vilayanur S. Ramachandran's mirror box (Doidge), and now new technology using augmented reality for the same purpose; to rewire the brain in such a way that phantom pain, which is many times felt with amputees, is relieved. Doidge and others use the box for amputees whose brain gets stuck in the phantom ghost pain of the missing limb. The question that begs to be answered is, why does the brain still think the limb exists? How can there be pain when there are no nerves?

Here is how it works. If the right arm is missing, they place the left arm into a mirror box and perform tasks with it. The mirror box tricks the senses into believing that the right arm is now functional as it now sees what it perceives to be a right arm again. Based on sensory input, the brain rewrites itself with new input that the arm still exists. It isn't reality, but the senses don't know that. They are tricking the brain into believing that the limb is no longer stuck in the 'last vestiges' of the traumatic and many times painful event that the limb was lost to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_box

So how does this fit with the whole regression or ANP/EP thing for me? Like this.
One of my parts walks toed-in when she appears. Head down, toe-in. As soon as I see my foot turn in I know she is presenting. Back to my statement of physical first. I don't attach so much to her emotionally (can't see the switch so much) but physically she presents very obviously. So I acknowledge her. What is it that makes her present? Insecurity. Not being wanted. See how trying to force her back in could exacerbate her presenting? Negative self talk will also make her more persistent. So I ask her...if I wanted to straighten my foot, what needs to change? Response (took me a bit to figure this out), 'I need to feel wanted...'.

"So what if I want you but I also want my foot to be a bit straighter? What if I alleviate your sense of not feeling wanted? Can we try that? I get that you don't feel wanted by others but I want you. I get you. And I make a promise to challenge or acknowledge what is in my environment that is (emotionally) having you present."

If I can't fix it, I leave (in an attempt to leave the trigger behind) , all the while focusing on straightening my foot. If I can't straighten my foot I know there is sill a problem. On the opposite side, I know I am better when I can hold my head up straight again. Brilliant really, my head literally drops so that I can see how she presents (if I choose to see it).

So, in the short answer to the quoted question @greenleaf, it takes as long as it takes to see physical representation, acknowledge and then attach emotionally to rectify the situation. My foot is literally teaching me to see and attach to emotions that I cannot readily identify because I have been brainwashed into ignoring the emotions. (@Eleanor this is for you I think) I believe, although we all state that we are having a hard time identifying the core self, that it is, in reality, the core that has the EP present. The core knows what is right and what is wrong.

It is up to us to learn the language of the core and retrain ourselves.

Sorry, this is going to be long, mostly because I am figuring this out on the fly.

When I was put into hospital, I feel like there were several EP's at the bottom of that. I have a disconnect with my 'pain' self. It was time, it seemed for it to present. Pancreatitis is apparently one of the most painful things ever. It got my undivided attention for weeks. I learned about my pain EP and how she presents. She moans, she clutches, she doubles over, she can't move, can't function, she sleeps. And if she is ignored she calls in the 'I must die' part to really get my attention. One triggers the other, which makes it all very convoluted. And, if I go back in time to when I was in California, I knew something was wrong and that my SO did not actually want me there. It started with that. I wouldn't acknowledge it, so pain EP enters, and then 'need to die' enters. Reverse engineering.

When my friend took me home from the hospital, he literally wouldn't let me leave the couch. He blocked the door to the room so that when my 'die EP' took over I couldn't wander outside. He had played that game before and knew he had to make it physically impossible for me to leave until the EP stopped presenting. He knows that part of me needs constant reassurance that I am wanted. Thank god.

Sorry for rant..... but you see, it all started because I didn't acknowledge the 'not feeling wanted' EP. I didn't acknowledge her because she no longer presents using the 'foot' as I had gotten her to trust I would hear her emotionally. I screwed up by not listening and trusting myself when I recognized something was wrong in California. So the big guns came out (pain and die EP's). No idea if this makes sense to anyone but me. If not, so sorry....lots to think about today.

 

[shimmerz]

You're right it is invisible - it is 'not there'.

Worst form of gaslighting ever.

 

[shimmerz]

So mostly the child parts gave up.

Interesting. I am certain that the men in my life fill this gap. Every man that I hook up with has a strong sense of fun ... a narcissistic sense of fun come to think of it. Fun at all costs. I, of course, don't see this until later. My recent SO and that whole mess was all about his needing to 'have fun' in LA and I didn't fit the bill anymore. So perhaps the fun part needs to become internal to me rather than external. I used to have fun for the sake of my children (take them places, joke around etc), now that avenue is closed to me.

My fun part is hiding. Oyyyyy! Where to find her????? Seems like a game of hide and seek is in order next....

Oh fun part!!!!! Come out, come out wherever you are!

 

[Hope4Now]

I really DO think it counts for other people. But boy it is hard to get that it counts for me.

Here's part of your work to do, perhaps? I understand this completely. Much of the work I'm still doing is encouraging my protector parts to recognize that I can handle the really hurt and vulnerable parts underneath. That they even exist. The protector parts for me refuse to believe that what I know happened actually happened. Your protectors seem to tell you that what happened really wasn't so bad...well, yeah, it would have been bad for someone else, but not bad for you...you can handle it. ??? So that part (EP? ANP?) is very helpful...helped you survive. But it's scared to death to acknowledge how awful it all was. ????

So the eventual part of the re-integration and healing process seems to use the PANIC/GRIEF circuits, to give an 'end of story' to all those unprocessed memories. With empathy, compassion, and some sort of external support, that can allow courage with a sense of safety to consciously venture into the PANIC/GRIEF network, to help guide it, learn from it, and allow it to integrate unresolved griefs into conscious memory, and genuinely put the past into the past.

I like this a lot. Makes sense to me. Hard to figure out HOW to ignite the self-compassion.

Then I read about this model. I realized that although she seemed to be able to cope in this world (very well I might add), that she was not whole. She was bound to crack under the pressure somewhere along the line.

WOW! YES. That's so what happened to me I think. I thought I was whole. That my super-mom/daughter/worker/wife/volunteer/etc. etc. was whole. I'm not.

So I ask her...if I wanted to straighten my foot, what needs to change? Response (took me a bit to figure this out), 'I need to feel wanted...'.

and

I believe, although we all state that we are having a hard time identifying the core self, that it is, in reality, the core that has the EP present. The core knows what is right and what is wrong.

and

And if she is ignored she calls in the 'I must die' part to really get my attention. One triggers the other, which makes it all very convoluted.

OMG. :wideeyed: YES. You explain the convolutedness extraordinarily well. Not scattered at all even though maybe it feels scattered. Really helps me to read this!

I screwed up by not listening and trusting myself when I recognized something was wrong in California. So the big guns came out (pain and die EP's). No idea if this makes sense to anyone but me. If not, so sorry....lots to think about today.

Makes complete sense. What a gift of clarity your core has offered you.

Oh fun part!!!!! Come out, come out wherever you are!

:tup: Did you ever play big group games as a kid, and then when it was over and everybody needed to come out of hiding and back to base, people would shout, "Ollie Ollie In Come Free!" (I think it is a sort of linguistic perversion of something like All ye.) I'm shouting this to all my selves these days! I hope your fun-loving part can figure out what s/he would like to do if s/he could feel safe. :hug:

 

[Hope4Now]

I suffer over this. I TRY to play. And I just... want to get the hell out of there. My mind just... shears off... It is horrible. Torture.

Like a dual consciousness? Like one part says I SHOULD. One part says I MUST. (ANP types?) Others say NO NO NO! ???
My therapist would ask me to ask the parts saying no, no, no, what they are afraid of. Have you tried this?

This questioning of parts is actually pretty scary for me, but has led me to a lot of insights when there's enough space and quiet in my system to "hear" what parts have to say. I am trying really hard to get to know the part(s) that torture me for not being or doing what they think I should be/do or must be/do...and I'm learning that they think they are protecting me from danger. The danger of abandonment of my self, and of other hurts to my self. Talk about convoluted...who ever knew that the simple act of doing something ridiculously playful with a child could trigger off so many neural explosions?

BTW, I know EXACTLY what you mean when you say your "mind just...shears off" Happens to me all the time. I hate it now that I am aware that it is happening. It happened just this morning...came home to kitchen fire/fire department (all okay)...Now that it is over, I am still sitting here working to let myself feel all the physical and emotional responses to that little crisis. My mind sheared off and I went into auto-pilot mode. In the past, would have just soldiered on. No big deal. No harm done. But it actually was kind of awful, and I am alone, and I'm trying to let myself feel that. Very triggery. Sometimes the most seemingly disconnected things can trigger EPs I think. :wtf: Sorry if I'm babbling or this doesn't resonate.

 

[Hope4Now]

Question for all you folks with dissociation issues.
My Mr. Famous Psychiatrist has now prescribed me a very low dose of Seroquel in addition to the Prozac I've been working up to for the past 8 weeks. He gave me the choice between Abilify and Seroquel and I chose the latter because it makes you sleepy and I have trouble sleeping. He said at high doses it is used for people with bi-polar disorder and psychosis (which he assures me I don't have :)), but at very low doses it can help with dissociation by quieting down parts that are really extreme and vying for attention. Is anybody on this? Does it work? It's meant to be my decision whether to take it or not and how much within a certain spectrum of milligrams :nailbiting:

 

[shimmerz]

I think for me it is the laughing. I got a really good sense of that when the SO told me from California (laughing) that there no way I was coming back there. It took me to my mother and one of the reasons I hate comedy shows. Canned laughter. My mother had no sense of humour with me. She would laugh with others but laugh at me. There is a difference. I didn't know that I knew what that difference was, but on some level I did or I wouldn't recognize it now.

So when the SO laughed when he told me that I wasn't coming back, another EP clicked in. The helpless, hopeless, humiliated one. I keep hearing my SO when I hear laughter saying 'I am delightful'. Like f*** you are, you piece of shiest. See what I mean? My voice completely changes when that EP comes out. I am a fighter. I am defensive. Not my normal MO.

I have a friend who is trying to call me these days. I say trying, because I will no longer pick up the phone with her. I have let her know that her laughing is driving me insane. She isn't listening so I need to keep away. Every time she calls she laughs. "Hey how are you? Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh. Horribly cold out there. Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh'. Drives me nuts. I will have to distinguish to this part what different types of laughter mean but for now I am good to keep away from it or I will be belligerent.

So, laughter is raw for me right now. When people (including myself) have fun, they generally laugh. I can't distinguish the evil 'I love it when I humiliate you' laugh from the fun laugh right now. That's why she is hiding. And when someone laughs around me my 'f*** you' EP part comes out, lashes out, stops at nothing to stop the laughter, and pushes whoever is involved away. She is one angry EP. Not sure if this resonates at all but thought I would throw it out there.

 

[shimmerz]

Abilify and Seroquel

My T said that anti-psychotics, since I wasn't psychotic, would make me potentially psychotic. Probably not an uplifting thing to say Hope, but you asked. I took Seroquel once, (not low dose) and it made me go ballistic. That is the frame of reference that T-doc and I had this conversation within.

 

[Hope4Now]

Probably not an uplifting thing to say Hope, but you asked.

I did ask. Thank you. I am a bit worried actually. He says all my parts have to be on board for it to work the way it is supposed to, but I have a tough time knowing whether they are or not. That's actually supposed to be what the seroquel can help with...cutting down the inner chaos enough for me to be present to be able to listen to what my parts are saying. Catch-22. I suppose I could try it and just let my husband know to keep a careful eye on me.