How Do I Drill Down To Something Smaller?

[lostforgottensoul]

I believe you can do this. And now, back to the thread.

Haha, you sounded like a commerical from our sponsor :P

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Can you define what love is without sex involved? Can you define what sex is without love involved?

Ok, gonna try this again.

Well i can say what i would kind of love i would give my child (if i had one) or what kind of love i would give/recieve from a spouce if i had one but not sure the spouce is a good idea since sex is involved there.

Just like i can say what i would tell another child or even adult about any of it; just not sure how to get myself out of the "lower than" catigory and into "like everyone else" one.

Would that help do you think?

 

[ShodokanJenn]

I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating something someone else already said. I got to the part where you say you "fell in love" with your step father and still think about him today. That's not an unusual occurrence. I used to like the leader of the cult I grew up in. In a child like way, I loved him. I hated some of the things he did to me, but he also made me feel important and cared for. Nobody touched me without his permission. I was included in things the other kids were left out of. He'd choose me over everyone else there. He could be incredibly gentle. Often times, after even the most horrific nights, he would hug me and comfort me and I was desperate for that comfort. When we'd arrive at meetings, I'd go straight to him. I craved his attention.

And even today, as I heal and realize how awful the things he did were, I still catch myself wondering how he is, if he'd hug me if I were to see him again... and I haven't been able to bring myself to report what he did. Even though I know his full name, which house he lives in, and bear physical scars as evidence of what he did. I know you've mentioned Stockholm Syndrome in other posts. I know it feels like you were in love, but really your mind was trying to protect you from the horror of reality. Believing that what was done to you was love, kept you alive and functioning. Now you are free, and you are starting to see that maybe it wasn't love after all. And I think you are probably starting to see that you weren't really in love... that you were just trying to survive. You're not doing anything wrong by struggling with this.

Also, I notice you said you killed small animals because they told you too. I did the same thing. It was awful. I have nightmares about it. I get super, super triggered when I see, hear, or read about anything bad happening to animals. I carry so much guilt over what I've done. My therapist has been working with me to help me change my belief that I could have chosen differently (to do so would have meant major harm to me, and as my therapist pointed out, they would have still killed the animal. I was a child, helpless to do anything but obey). You were a child, and you really had no choice. It doesn't make you evil or bad or disgusting or any of the other things I imagine you've told yourself. I've told myself the same things. Convinced myself that people would stop loving or liking me if they knew what I'd done. You're not alone in this.

 

[Justmehere]

You are using two common defense mechanisms: over-analyzing and over-explaining. (I do both things myself.)

People here have given you a lot of great suggestions. You keep re-explaining yourself on matters, or rehashing suggestions. Is this ok, is that ok...?

I sometimes think if I just get it right or if I finally explain myself, then things will be ok, or at least a little better. I don't know if this is what you think or feel. I don't have BPD (so my therapist says) but I can relate to wanting to be understood, so much.

You also keep getting ahead of yourself too. Like you are trying to get to the top of the mountain with leaps and bounds. Slow down and try to focus on just one thing.

It's not just a saying from a children's book, but a true characteristic of this kind of work: slow and steady wins the race.

Even more so, "Just one thing at a time" and "do the next thing" are two very important skills that DBT teaches becasue it's really important for effective work on this stuff, and important for emotional regulation. These are especially important tools for someone with BPD. Trying to discuss or tackle multiple subjects at once feels like the best thing to do, but it will increase the amount of time you feel like crap.

If you are not well regulated, this work becomes almost impossible to do. Well regulated doesn't mean free of pain and emotion, but that the emotion levels between 2-5/6 on a scale of 1-10 (10 being absolutely overwhelmed with emotions.) When emotions are dysregulated, the part of the brain that is able to do this work shuts off.

So learning skills like doing one thing at a time, focusing on one topic at a time, they are not just skills to help people follow you and have better interpersonal relationships, it will help you FEEL better too. It won't be easy, but like learning a new task. It will take a little time to get the hang of it.

As for writing out how you would show love to a child, or what you would say to a child, start there. Any child. You pick. Don't over think it, and don't over complicate it. Simplify. simplify, simplify. Don't add in other people, or other kinds of love. Pick one thing and stick with it. Do just the next thing, and only that thing before rushing to other things. It might seem counterintuitive that this would help someone to feel better, especially when feeling look crap and wanting to get to that top of the mountain so bad.

With DBT, you would learn that relief can be found on the way up to that mountain and it's not only helpful for the journey to the top, but critical.

Otherwise you will keep taking and step up, and then sliding back, leaping up, and then sliding back, and end up frustrated and feeling like a failure at best. You will reinforce your negative self talk...

Focus on one thing as the next step. (I write this to you, while reminding myself of it and doing a crap job of it in my own writing to you. Argh.)

Remeber, we are not trained professionals. We are peers. Fellow sufferers. Fellow trauma survivors, trying to reach our own mountain tops. People with our own blind spots and issues and biases and projections. It's just feedback from peers on the interwebs. Not the answer or the final source. Not like your therapist. We are peers who want to support your journey, like you support others. (I know, I keep picking out positives, but you do support others here and there - and I hope that you start noticing positives moments in what you do, even if you only notice moments of doing something positive, because just the act of noticing them leads to increased positive behaviors. Negative behaviors tend to change quicker when they are replaced, not just stopped. So yeah, I'm gonna be relentless about noticing positives,no matter how big or small they are.)

As a peer, I hope you start at step one with the thought log and then bring it in to your therapist before you go into more steps, even just as an excercise to begin to build the ability to take one step at a time, and to make sure your therapist is fully included in the process. It will likely help your therapist a lot, and help you. A well done thought log should take considerable time to do. More than a few days.

Or if your next step is writing out how you would love a child, then do that. Don't take it further and don't add in other subjects. Stay on that one subject, if only to begin to develop that ability to do one thing at a time so you can feel better faster.

I commend you on all the hard work you are doing and your willingness to take hard steps to change. None of this is easy. It is clear that you really have been doing the best you can, and things needs to change too. :hug:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

He could be incredibly gentle. Often times, after even the most horrific nights, he would hug me and comfort me and I was desperate for that comfort. When we'd arrive at meetings, I'd go straight to him. I craved his attention.

OMG Yes! Totally how i feel and totally confusing!

Also, I notice you said you killed small animals because they told you too. I did the same thing. It was awful. I have nightmares about it. I get super, super triggered when I see, hear, or read about anything bad happening to animals. I carry so much guilt over what I've done.

Me too! :( I dont think the sound an animal makes when you cut its jugular vein will EVER leave my head :(

My therapist has been working with me to help me change my belief that I could have chosen differently (to do so would have meant major harm to me, and as my therapist pointed out, they would have still killed the animal. I was a child, helpless to do anything but obey).

My therapist said the same thing. He asked what would happen if i didnt. I got punished..well there you go but for whatever its not that straight foward for me. I dont know.

After my dad left at 12, it all happened SOO fast, the sex w/ dogs and killing the animals were w/ in days of each other and aomeone holding your head down under very hot water has got to be the worst feeling in the world and i guess i was terrified it waa gonna happen again so i guess thats why i didnt resist? I actually got rather used to it, didnt care after a while. I think thats what i hate myself over the worse...i didnt care anymore.

Have you ever felt like needing to carry the same rituals out that were done to you? Any of them? I have never physically harmed an animal since i moved out but have self done the rest and i guess i dont get why. I know theres a super ton of emotions around them though i cant pick them out yet but i dont know why i felt the need to do them in the first place after i left.

I so confuse me!

Convinced myself that people would stop loving or liking me if they knew what I'd done. You're not alone in this.

I thought this when it was supressed, im 34 and its only been unsupressed not quite t yrs yet...took me a yr to tell my therapist why i was really going to his office every week. Im sure he knew it didnt have anything to do with the dumb ass things we talked about and he caught my come on too; we now talk about transference A LOT.

The blame has just shift from me to them leaving room for me to get better a few days ago but before then i carried it fully.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

You also keep getting ahead of yourself too. Like you are trying to get to the top of the mountain with leaps and bounds. Slow down and try to focus on just one thing.

Im just trying to find the start point is all, what is the smallest thing i can find to work on and dont think ive gotten it down to being too broad yet. Maybe i have, i dont know. Im gonna talk to my therapist about it but would like to bounce to ideas to knock it down to the narrow first.

Or if your next step is writing out how you would love a child, then do that. Don't take it further and don't add in other subjects. Stay on that one subject, if only to begin to develop that ability to do one thing at a time so you can feel better faster.

I can do that, i cant physically write it but i can put it in mu diary here.

I commend you on all the hard work you are doing and your willingness to take hard steps to change. None of this is easy. It is clear that you really have been doing the best you can, and things needs to change too. :hug:

Thanks! :hug:

 

[ShodokanJenn]

For a lot of years, I acted out some of the rituals that were done to me. I never willingly harmed anyone or anything, but so much of the rest, I kept doing to myself. Part of it was self blame and guilt and shame. I felt I deserved to be punished. But a big part of it was comfort. It was what I knew, what I was familiar with. Dealing with the pain I inflicted on myself was easier than trying to deal with the pain of what happened to me. Even now, after several years of resisting urges to act out those rituals, I have to fight for it. Various things set off the urges - physical pain, memories and flashbacks and nightmares, hearing certain phrases, certain thought patterns, certain dates.

I know what you mean about the sound. It never leaves. I have worked extensively on this part of my experience with my therapist. I don't have full on visual flashbacks of it very often any more, but the sound... the sound haunts me. I hear it at random times. Especially when I'm trying to fall asleep. Most people have never heard it, would have no idea that animals can even make that sound.

The blame shift is huge. Hang onto it. Remind yourself often that it really was their fault, and not yours. It's taken me years and years to shift the blame. And I still try to take it back sometimes. I catch myself thinking "What if I had..." or "if only I hadn't..." My therapist challenged me big time when we were discussing the things with animals. The thing that struck me most was when he went through is own list of what if questions. What if my grandparents had loved me. What if my mom hadn't abandoned me. What if I hadn't been surrounded by monsters. What if someone had stepped up and helped me when they saw the signs (there were many, and they were pretty obvious). What if I had been less compliant and therefore received more beatings and more torture. What if I hadn't learned early on how to dissociate as a form of self protection. All of those pointed out to me that what happened really wasn't my fault. That it was THEIR fault.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Most people have never heard it, would have no idea that animals can even make that sound.

Isnt that the truth! I hear it at night too and i wake up from nightmares hearing if :(

For a lot of years, I acted out some of the rituals that were done to me. I never willingly harmed anyone or anything, but so much of the rest, I kept doing to myself. Part of it was self blame and guilt and shame. I felt I deserved to be punished. But a big part of it was comfort. It was what I knew, what I was familiar with. Dealing with the pain I inflicted on myself was easier than trying to deal with the pain of what happened to me.

Totally, i know somewhat why i do them but not fully though resently, yesterday, was able to get a handle on one; hopefully for good!

Is it just an act of resisting? Cuz they are so much stronger than the urge to cut or any other drug ive been on...ive never been able to just resist w/o my mind heasing straight to suicide.

The blame shift is huge. Hang onto it. Remind yourself often that it really was their fault, and not yours. It's taken me years and years to shift the blame. And I still try to take it back sometimes. I catch myself thinking "What if I had..." or "if only I hadn't..."

Trying REALLY HARD to keep it on them. My brain wants to move it back BAD.

What if my grandparents had loved me. What if my mom hadn't abandoned me. What if I hadn't been surrounded by monsters. What if someone had stepped up and helped me when they saw the signs (there were many, and they were pretty obvious). What if I had been less compliant and therefore received more beatings and more torture.

Sometimes my therapist and i do that, signs that SOMETHING was wrong was as neon as they get but im trying to not play what ifs, tho i catch myself every once in the while ovee the last few days. I think it needs to settle some, or prob a lot. It took me almost 7 yrs of therapy to move the blame. I hope i dont expience anyrhing as painful as that was again!

Thank you for talking to me! Is it ok w/ you if i follow you? You seem a bit further ahead than me, maybe you can give me some pointers here or there.

 

[ShodokanJenn]

It is absolutely okay for you to follow me. I don't know how much further along I am than you, but I do know I have come a LONG way since starting therapy. Also, I have the advantage of having been placed in therapeutic foster care from age 14-18. I did a lot of healing during that time. A lot of learning how to interact with others and learning what a healthy family was like.

As far as the rituals go... it is about resisting, yes. Obviously. But for me, resisting didn't do much good until I started to examine the reasons I was doing them. Not just the self loathing and comfort seeking, but also the reasons they were done to me in the first place (i.e. the statements that I was dirty, that it was my purpose, that everybody did it, it was to show honor, and so on). I had to evaluate the reasons and counter them with reality. It wasn't something I could do on my own. I needed my therapist's help. It was so hard to admit to him some of the things I was doing, and each new admission sent me into a spin. But it was worth it. Last week marked five years since I last harmed myself on purpose. It's gotten easier with time, but I know it's something that will come up for the rest of my life.

Keep fighting. It IS worth it.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

A lot of learning how to interact with others and learning what a healthy family was like.

Yeah, that would be a ton of help! So glad you had that! I didnt and so got thrusted into the adult world w/o any sense of how to live "normally". They did keep control from 18 to 19 when i cut contact but even at my job i remember thinking "why isnt everyone like having a ton of orgies?" :facepalm: Doh!

The way i was until i entered therapy was numb, mostly, it started to unsupress itself before then and i was like exploding all of my dad and step mom and they has no clue what was up but forced me into therapy. Since its been unsupressed, i often tell my therapist that he's turning me into a "crazy person".

No idea how to 'correctly' act; the only reason i can work is cuz im so damn good at numbing myself.

As far as the rituals go... it is about resisting, yes. Obviously. But for me, resisting didn't do much good until I started to examine the reasons I was doing them. Not just the self loathing and comfort seeking, but also the reasons they were done to me in the first place

Yes! What i knew all along. I do know the one i stopped i found a ton of emotions around it but havent yet been able to pick them out yet. Im sure i will the more i put into place my "do instead" plan.

It was so hard to admit to him some of the things I was doing, and each new admission sent me into a spin. But it was worth it. Last week marked five years since I last harmed myself on purpose.

Oh i know that feeling but i knew there just like i know here, if not admitted to, i cant get better.

Good job on 5 yrs! Thats amazing!

It's gotten easier with time, but I know it's something that will come up for the rest of my life.

Keep fighting. It IS worth it.

Im hoping it does get easier as it seems rather impossible at the moment...and im sure its something im gonna have to deal w/ the rest of my life too.

Thank you SOOO much!!!! :hug:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Grrrr, 30 mins over on a call and just had to be asked to move cubicles today so now after taking/putting on meds its almost time for bed. Maybe i'll fall asleep doing this in my diary :p

 

[lostforgottensoul]

You are using two common defense mechanisms: over-analyzing and over-explaining. (I do both things my...

There done, in my diary