Alienation - Defined as “feeling outside of a group or of humanity itself.”

[Rose White]

I’m putting this in this thread because I recently learned that panic is related to the fear of abandonment that starts in infancy (I learned this from the work of Jaak Panksepp.). This is a discussion of alienation. My definition of it is “feeling outside of a group or of humanity itself.” And so with that comes feelings of abandonment, loss, loneliness.

I blame my preverbal csa and the beatings by my dad and the emotional neglect of both my parents. Even though those things aren’t happening anymore. Which means now I’m responsible for rewiring/repatterning/reparenting etc.

And I can make small changes sometimes. Idk how permanent they are. And intimacy sort of becomes a kind of siren blast mirror in my face of “Haw haw, funny you thought you could get better. Funny you thought you could be a part of *this* human experience.”

In good moments I do feel I am moving toward humanity. The steps feel achingly small. And I also am learning to accept that I will never be completely enfolded into humanity (and maybe that would be its own kind of nightmare), that to be alive is to *feel* separated. But sometimes the csa/trauma burden feels too great. Idk, I’m curious if and how you relate. And just hearing you talk about your own alienation activates something in me that makes me want to connect.

 

[Friday]

panic is related to the fear of abandonment that starts in infancy

So how does panic, or the fear of abandonment, relate to alienation?

 

[Rose White]

@Friday for me it relates in the sense of feeling like there is no one to be close to, and a sense of loss—someone (even if it seems mythical) was there once but is gone. If someone chooses not to be close to anyone I don’t think that’s alienation. Feels like it happens from a place of being broken inside—wanting to connect but can’t. But I’m starting to think this feeling of being split off from humans is normal to everyone even those not traumatized.

 

[arfie]

So how does panic, or the fear of abandonment, relate to alienation?

in my own case, it relates in the hyper vigilance and social anxiety which permeates my condition

empathy, rose. i have undergone decades of psychotherapy and am still reluctant to take my place in the human genome. i would much rather be a grizzly bear. they get to sleep half the year and don't need to be social with the other grizzlies.

those small changes are what keep me moving forward. even when they prove to be temporary, stretching my comfort zone far enough to try expands my comfort zone mightily.

 

[Rose White]

am still reluctant to take my place in the human genome.

But something drives you in that direction?

 

[Movingforward10]

Hmmmm. I have always felt outside of society. But I think that's from coming from parents from two different countries and being brought up at a time where mixing like that was unusual. Everyone in primary school was from the country of that school. And secondary most were. I also spent a few years growing up in another country and we didn't integrate. So was on the outside then.

Also, having parents who were who they were. My T said a few years ago "I'm sorry you have always felt outside of your family". And I didn't realise I had.
I didn't belong in family.
I didn't belong in society.
And then coming out as gay in the 90s. I didn't belong in society.
And having secrete/denial about CSA. I didn't belong in society.
And now, I don't think I want to belong in soeicty as it's vile. So much hate.

So I have always felt on the outside.
That doesn't seem so problematic now as I see society as wrong rather than myself.
But I seel out the people around me who offered care, compassion, love. So I don't feel alienated by E or my friends. And that gives me grounding that I never had before.

 

[user27357]

we want to procreate. we want to be accepted by our peers. We dont want to feel unable to find sex partners, we dont want to miss out on the benefits of being part of a group.

Other motivations drive us toward dominance, acquisition, curiosity, creativity, the whole gamut of human desires, but procreation and safety in the group are in my experience the main goals we seek first and put the most value on.

so, doesnt it make sense that any feelings of failure to meet these goals weigh heavier than any other failures we have to live with?

Like any other human infant my brand new brain knew i had to somehow garner the love of my parents in order to survive, almost as surely as i knew i had to eat and drink and breathe. As i got older i knew i felt attraction to potential sex partners and adolescence was basically a transition to a new set of goals beyond merely surviving for myself to supporting a family and maintaining relationships in order to make it possible. Of course it isnt a universal path we all follow. Enough of us do to keep us alive as a race though.

I’m sure that curiosity and creativity and acquisition and the drive to dominate are strong enough in some of us that any perceived failures weigh heavily in those driven by those desires.

Personally, my biggest perceived failures have been wrapped up in desire for intimacy with individuals and inclusion in the group, im pretty basic i guess.No other drive other than survival even comes close. Loneliness, alienation and hunger are horrible perceived failures because of it.

I haven't starved to death, i have grandkids and i pay my taxes and vote so i should be good to go, right? nope, still driven and still hating to feel like i need to do more. Hopelessly human. Worried about food and survival, doing what i need to do to avoid alienation and looking for love 24/7.

trying to understand and trying to be creative and trying to make my life meaningful beyond procreation and getting old are strong too, but i dont lose much sleep over not getting computer networking or struggling with a weird chord progression or feelings of whats next beyond a body of work and a growing group of off spring.

If I am lonely, hungry, feeling alienated or scared i might get killed I can be found hopelessly lost on the path toward finding solutions.

 

[arfie]

But something drives you in that direction?

as much as i wish i was a grizzly, or whatever my cross-species fantasy of the hour is, it remains an obvious fact that i am human, like it or not. i still mostly hate that fact, but hate is like drinking poison and waiting for the fact to die. i've gotten as far as making my peace with that unfortunate fact of my life. works in progress.

 

[Rose White]

it remains an obvious fact that i am human,

Yes. Do you feel sort of compelled to take your place in the human genome? Why not be a hermit (if the orphans hadn’t appeared on the scene)?

 

[arfie]

Why not be a hermit (if the orphans hadn’t appeared on the scene)?

long before the orphans, i have actually gone off grid and lived in the wilderness. alas, my humanity asserted itself, even there. i started accepting the facts of my dna around the time the animals started singing disney tunes. whatever my opinion of the facts, i is what i is and i ain't what i ain't.

an equal fact is that a former child prostitute is never going to have an easily assimilated perspective. accepting my place in the human genome is not the same as fitting in with the culture of your birth. culturally, my compulsion to fit in is mostly limited to keeping a friendly attitude while i hunt the basics of life, such as groceries, etc.

 

[crew10]

in my own case, it relates in the hyper vigilance and social anxiety which permeates my condition

empathy, rose. i have undergone decades of psychotherapy and am still reluctant to take my place in the human genome. i would much rather be a grizzly bear. they get to sleep half the year and don't need to be social with the other grizzlies.

those small changes are what keep me moving forward. even when they prove to be temporary, stretching my comfort zone far enough to try expands my comfort zone mightily.

to me its kinda the same always temporary, get doin ok people think im ok my situation gets much more stressful and bam here it is again like i almost forgot it was there over and over gettin too old for it best to all.