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Archetypes In Therapy - Jung - And Spirituality.

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I am just wondering if anyone would like to share anything they feel is relevant if they have had this type of therapy or if they know anything about it.

From the little I know there is quite a strong spiritual underpinning to Jungian and similar therapies. This is part of what I don't feel would work for me as I am afraid I am not very spiritual. It's one of the reasons I never did the 12 step programmes. It feels a little attached to family issues for me and not helpful. I also would not easily be able to believe in such things as the collective unconscious and alchemy for me.

I am not a closed minded person at all. I would possibly consider myself cautious in what I believe in whilst being open to other perspectives being valid. I am very respectful of others beliefs.

I am thinking that aspects of this type of therapy may suit me very well though even though I don't know much about it.

Just so noone wastes their energy - I don't need anyone to convince me of the merits spirituality. ;)

Anyone?
 
I fear I have nothing but support to lend. I also wanted to say I read up on it and it seems to be more focused on the spirituality on the self, rather than based on religious belief. Which being aware of and in touch with oneself has to be good right? I would be interested in this type of therapy, it seems like it would facilitate a lot of personal growth. But I suppose a person would already need to be at a stage in their progress where they can step back and look at their weaknesses as well as strengths(and also have an extremely good relationship with their therapist).
 
Loveneverfails, thank you!

I am afraid I am not very informed in general and what I do know comes mostly from reading up a bit of Jung way back. But that was very theoretical and I don't really have a sense of how it would feel to be in therapy.

Which being aware of and in touch with oneself has to be good right?
Being in touch with myself seems to be the key for me to manage everything else so it interesting that that was what you picked up from it.

I am hoping that my ideas of the type of spirituality involved may be skewed.

I think one of the things I struggle with is always having very divergent forces inside me pushing and pulling in different directions. In some way doing parts therapy may help with this but the concept frightens me as I may feel more split. So the archetypes appeal a bit as the concept doesn't seem as split in my mind. I don't know if that makes sense of not.

The extremely good relationship with the therapist may be a challenge! :p From a trust perspective.
 
From what I read(which according to the website was recent) it's more a method to bring the unconscious to the conscious. To make the patient aware of the decisions and habits in their lives that they are making that might need changing for their own better health. Like for example if a person was so afraid of a relationship they unwittingly sabotaged every one they had. It sounded like the jung method was based on trying to get that person more in touch with the reasons why they were making those choices, rather than just getting them to get over a fear of commitment or intimacy. It was very interesting stuff.

It also sounded like it was a very strenuous undertaking as most practitioners prefer to meet more than once a week and that the emotions during the therapy are very intense, hence trust and absolute privacy must be maintained. All psychoanalysts must also undergo at least a minimum of 4 years training in the United States to do it, so you know if they're certified, they actually do know what they're doing.

Again, fascinating stuff. If I had the time and money to put into that, I'd definitely give it a go myself!
 
From the little I know there is quite a strong spiritual underpinning to Jungian and similar therapies. This is part of what I don't feel would work for me as I am afraid I am not very spiritual.
Well, I guess that the word "spiritual" or "spirituality" can have as many meanings as there are people. To me, once we are born, we ARE spiritual people, as I tend to consider spirituality as life itself, and the rise of consciousness that goes with it.

On the other hand, I admit that I try to avoid the use of that word "spiritual" anyway, because it seems that it leads too easily to misunderstandings between persons.
 
I work with archetypes and it helps me greatly. I'm actually not very comfortable with the word "spiritual", although I sometimes use it because it's a word that other people often relate to. I would always prefer the word "metaphysical" - beyond the physical, which to me is a fusion of physical laws, philosophy and psychology.

For me, metaphysics means there are laws to the universe and to ourselves within it. Such as, what you focus on is what you attract, what you need is revealed to you/provided for you although you might not like it or perhaps even recognise it. Maybe this sounds the same as spirituality to some people but for me I'd rather not use that word if given the choice. For me, spirituality has too much focus on a described idea, and - to be honest - too many ideas about being individually cherished. Metaphysics is simply how things work. Like gravity. It's impersonal in that it's not punishing us, favouring us or otherwise singling us out. But it's personal in that we are each in a very individual and complex situation, in the same way that no two snowflakes are identical.

After some initial trauma therapy (standard person-centred talk therapy with a trauma specialist, which was very helpful) I was lost as to finding a new therapist. I was torn because I was so drawn to Jungian ideas, but I did not want to do analysis. I didn't want to spend two or three sessions a week for a long time analysing my childhood. This might suit other people, and their finances and timescales, but it wasn't for me.

Fortunately, I found out that transpersonal therapy was the kind of mix of standard psychotherapy and Jungian ideas that would suit me. It depends on the individual therapist, as with any kind of therapy, and I like the fact that the transpersonal therapist I found and now see is an integrative (multi-approach) therapist and also a firm believer in practical approaches like dialectical behaviour therapy. She stated very clearly from the outset that she would work with the clients' views, not hers, and did not even require clients to identify with spiritual ideas at all.

My therapist actually sees archetypes a bit differently from me, I think. I follow a concept where we each have the same four fundamental ones (victim, saboteur, prostitute and one of the child archetypes) plus eight others that are our own mix that are with us throughout our lives. Others come and go for us, and we can also draw on them as we need to. This concept is a development of Jung's ideas by Caroline Myss (Link Removed).

I think my therapist sees archetypes as subpersonalities, and I think there are other therapeutic approaches that also work with subpersonalities but the difference with transpersonal therapy is whether they are seen as with us all our lives or for part of them.

Personally, I relate very much to what Caroline Myss says - that we are born with 12 which remain with us, and others come and go. I have identified my twelve, and the way it explains me, my patterns, and my tendencies is incredibly helpful.

When I was little, we had a maths lesson at school that used Cuisinaire rods (they are different lengths and colours that you can put together in an experiential/tactile way to see that, for example, the blue 7cm rod plus the orange 3cm rod together are the same length as the brown 10cm rod). That single lesson transformed my concept of maths, which up until then had been laborious thinking about 7 apples, 3 apples and 10 apples. Suddenly I completely understood the fundamental relationship between 3, 7 and 10 in a way that was about their innate nature and not having to translate it into the rules of arithmetic. That was exactly what learning about archetypes was for me in relation to understanding myself.

Alchemy... wow, where to start. I've only dipped my toe into this, and I think the power of it to transform things is incredible. I'm not sure what your impression of it is, though. Would you like to say more?

I can't read Jung. I can't get through the sentences, let alone paragraphs, chapters or books. I read Jung "secondhand", through other people's writings. A book that had a big impact on me was "The Inner World of Trauma: Archetypal Defenses of the Personal Spirit" by Donald Kalsched. It's very dated in its context, which was post-holocaust. However, there were things in the book that resonated with me very directly. One was its reference to Jung's description of how we split ourselves during trauma, which Jung likened to us being on the colour spectrum, and part of us retreating to ultra-violet while another part rushed into infra-red - both still on the spectrum but at extreme ends of it, and only visible now in certain ways.

I'm very careful to see parts of myself as aspects of a whole, and not to confuse that with dissociative identify disorder, which I don't have and which I think needs different approaches. That's one reason why I like Jung's analogy of the colour spectrum - parts of me may have been pushed apart, even to the very edge, but they are still on a single, continuous plane.

being aware of and in touch with oneself has to be good right?

Yes! I actually think it's my main hope for finding my way to healing. I think the Jungian view is that we have access to what we need, through our connection to inner, shared or higher wisdom and understanding.

Jungian ideas suit me because of their focus on the intuitive side of ourselves (eg intuition and dreams), our shared experiences (eg archetypes, the collective unconscious) and the potential for transformation (eg alchemy). I like to think there's more to us than thinking selves... in my case, if I had to rely on my thinking self I would be in big trouble!
 
From the little I know there is quite a strong spiritual underpinning to Jungian and similar therapies. This is part of what I don't feel would work for me as I am afraid I am not very spiritual. It's one of the reasons I never did the 12 step programmes. It feels a little attached to family issues for me and not helpful.

I have never been attracted to the 12 step programmes. I know they help many people, and my view is individual to me. To me, they belong to a different era and a different set of people, so much so that they can't be useful to me.

I'm not sure I understand whether you're connecting family issues to Jungian ideas, or to ideas of spirituality generally? I have huge problems with family. For me, this has never been an obstacle to thinking about Jungian ideas.
 
Loveneverfails,

psychoanalysts
I actually know someone who has just started psychoanalysis proper and is going in 5 times a week! :-/ He is thinking of studying it and if he does want to he has to do therapy like this for a year. How anyone manages that I don't know. :wideeyed:

Whichever I use I would not want to do formal psychoanalysis. I could be wrong but I think jungian therapy can be used more loosely. I had psychodynamic before (freuedian) and technically one should do it the same way but I had it like normal talk therapy and I think its often done in that way. Psychodynamic definitely helped me a lot with identifying and changing patterns in my life actually.

You make some good points about consciousness etc. Glad you found it interesting too.


Amcen,
Thank you! You raise some important points.

life itself, and the rise of consciousness that goes with it.
I guess this is part of what I was hoping for. Some exploration of the alternatives to the way I am perceiving spirituality. Its like a block for me. I tried to get past it with 12 steps but never could. They say it does not have to be God and can be anything but it still did not help me. I like your comment about consciousness.

I try to avoid the use of that word "spiritual
I guess this is what happens to me. The word is enough. And if it is a core belief then the type of therapist may find this important and that may cause a disconnect between us at some point.

Thanks.
 
Gosh Hashi thank you. There is so much in what you wrote that I am going to take my time with most of it before I answer fully. Everything you said is very helpful.


Metaphysics is simply how things work. Like gravity.
I like how you explained this and I think I need to look t metaphysics more carefully. When I said I read some Jung way back I meant that very lightly! I too struggled a bit and I think part of the reason was again the spirituality issue. I was much younger and more rigid in my thinking and although I found many aspects of it interesting I could not get my head around the rest. Its possible I would see it very differently now.

but it wasn't for me.
I am on the same page as you about psychoanalysis. For the same reasons.

I looked it up a little and it seems that the only two approaches that use archetypes are Jungian and Transpersonal. Do you know if that is true? No pressure to answer as I know you have a lot on your plate at present.

I am also not sure I understand the difference between how you and your therapist view archetypes.

What precipitated this thread was reading up about your orphan child! It just clicked how clear it made everything and I have not seen that with other approaches. To be honest I had not considered it seriously before that.

The first time I read the basics on transactional analysis there was a eureka moment to do with certain things in how we relate to others but this seems more complex. Or maybe not more complex but rather more multidimensional and that feels more reflective of the forces inside me.


connecting family issues to Jungian ideas, or to ideas of spirituality generally?
Sorry for being vague. I don't connect family as a concept to archetype therapy. It is spirituality itself that has connections to my own family for me. Nothing terrible or sinister like some have. Just something that has become hooked up with a whole lot of fairly unrelated baggage.

Actually. As I was writing this I realised I know someone else doing Jungian therapy and I know she is not religious at all either. And is a logical person too. I do think its possible that I am not seeing the whole picture very clearly.

I need to read some of that information before I comment further. Thanks again for the responses.

If anyone wants to share anything about alchemy or collective consciousness to make me feel more convinced then feel free! :geek:
 
As I was writing this I realised I know someone else doing Jungian therapy and I know she is not religious at all either.

Ah, religion.

I don't belong to any religion, and my religious upbringing has often caused issues for me. I think there's a lot of value in religion, and have wished I belonged to a faith group who could help me learn and practise. I see religion as giving us a way to conceptualise things that are hard to grasp. It's easier to think about the nature of suffering if we have the example of the crucifixion. It's easier to connect to ideas of compassion by thinking about Quan Yin. Inevitably, bringing things "down" to the level of our understanding can also be restrictive and limiting, and can have negative effects on thinking and behaviour. This is before even starting to think about how religions operate as institutions.

Unfortunately, the way I experienced religion as a child wasn't positive and has become an obstacle more than anything. It's better for me not to use the word God, for example, because the unhelpful associations I have with that word are so strong I'm not sure any amount of telling myself new meanings can get past that. Higher power is a phrase I use, like spirituality, because it means something to other people. Personally, I view things more as energetic forces shaping patterns and events, but that probably means nothing to anyone else.

Religious belief isn't needed in order to work with spirituality/metaphysics, but there are things that might be common to both. For example, I find rituals helpful as a symbolic way to stay connected to my deeper beliefs. Religion does this a lot. That doesn't mean that what I'm doing is religious. It's more to do with the collective unconscious, and the shared way we experience and understand things, so the same ideas and symbols will emerge independently in different cultures, religions and individuals.

It's hard to talk about different things without using the same terminology for all of them, and in that sense it can be hard to separate religion from spirituality from metaphysics. Similarly, the same sort of concepts might appear in each of them, but that doesn't mean a religious practice, a spiritual practice or a metaphysical practice are the same as each other. Not sure if I'm putting that very well. It's tricky! :confused:
 
I looked it up a little and it seems that the only two approaches that use archetypes are Jungian and Transpersonal.

I only know what I found out for myself. I stopped looking when I found transpersonal psychotherapy. In terms of psychotherapy, Jungian and transpersonal are the only two I know about.

There is another way I know of exploring archetypes, but it isn't therapy. Before I came out of denial, minimisation and partial amnesia, I thought my issue was clinical depression. During that time I tried various types of mainstream and alternative therapies for that. I read Caroline Myss's books and went to her workshops, then I had some sessions with an archetype practitioner who had trained with her. I say practitioner - he happened to also be a counsellor but he might not have been. It's a bit like someone being an NLP practitioner. They might have other training but they might not.

The purpose of consulting with him was to help me identify and understand my own archetypes and patterns. There are tools for this, including timelines and journal dialogues. Initially, I don't think I could have done this process very easily without his insights and knowledge. However, it was actually this process that woke me up out of my fog and I started recovering memories. He was not equipped to counsel me or support me through the effects of this, and couldn't have been expected to. He directed me to get more qualified help for the trauma issues. My work with him was not therapy. It was extremely useful for beginning archetype work, but not for anything to do with addressing trauma or my volatile feelings.

I continued to work with archetypes on my own. The trauma therapist I then saw didn't work with archetypes herself, but was happy for us to talk about things in relation to them since it was such a helpful concept for me and didn't contradict her approach.

I am also not sure I understand the difference between how you and your therapist view archetypes.

I work with the idea that we each have 12 archetypes that are with us from birth and always playing out in our lives (this is from Caroline Myss, not from Jung). Fulfilling our potential/life purpose is closely connected to working with these 12 archetypes. We have others for a time along the way. I think transpersonal therapists see all subpersonalities as temporary, arising as and when needed. I suppose I see my "life's journey", for want of a better phrase, to be closely connected to my 12 lifelong archetypes. Maybe I see archetypes as the point, while transpersonal therapists see subpersonalities as part of the process?

I haven't gone into it with my therapist because it doesn't seem to matter. She works with my views and what they mean to me, in the same way that she would with anything that I related to. This is similar to my first trauma therapist accepting that archetypes were important and useful to me, but the difference with seeing a transpersonal therapist is how knowledgeable she is about the concept of archetypes.
 
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