Ativan / Lorazepam

[linasmom]

Rach,

The withdrawal from AD's is NOTHING compared to benzos.

But Wen, would you say to someone who is trying to kick a coke habit "oh, it's not that bad, you should see what those heroin junkies have to go through!"?

Probably not. Just because one is harder to kick than the other doesn't negate the addictive element. :kiss:

 

[Deleted member 541]

Rach,

You have your belief, and I have seen first hand someone ADDICTED and trying to come off benzos. It wasn't pleasant to watch her trying to step down 1/4 mg a week, only to have to add that 1/4 mg when she went into sever withdrawals. She also had seizures from trying to wean too..........BTW she was in the hospital trying to do this.....

I am not talking about people that take an occasional benzo to help with anxiety. I am talking people that are on them long term under Dr's care. That is when the addiction can happen....

 

[bratgrrl]

Linasmom, I will try and answer your question the best I can (I don't know how to take portions out like you did). As I am not here to argue, just to share my experience and my knowledge. Yet, one must remember we all have different experiences and we are from all over the world, and certain things are looked at differently. There are many out there who do not believe addiction is a disease, that it is a choice. I live with that. As I also live with individuals that believe that I should be able to walk out my front door with no fear.

Addiction represents harmful, long term chemical changes in the brain that can lead to tolerance, physical dependence, and uncontrollable cravings. However, the symptoms we feel coming off antidepressants, the anxiety, sadness, depression, headaches, dizziness, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea are all very real. As I have experienced them. They also will sometimes last months and are horrible!
Tritating off very slowly helps with the withdrawal symptoms.

Wow, now I'm really confused! Sooooooo, the withdrawal symptoms are very real but it's not considered an "addiction"? Is it because one does not experience "uncontrollable cravings" for an antidepressant like they would a benzo (a "feel good" drug)? Because all of the other "representations" you listed for addiction also apply to antidepressants.

Yes, that is it. It does not have those cravings that are uncontrollable, the one thing that makes it different. I never stole money from my family to get more effexor. Although that was a quite common occurrence when I was using benzo's & opiates.

Do you also know that the anti-depressant Effexor, does the same thing - it creates a tolerance requiring larger and larger dosages which is why a lot of people taking this drug end up maxing out on it at 300 mg. As for feelings of "well being", hmm, that's a bit subjective but okay. Do anti-depressants not create that feeling as well? In my own experience they do. I've described in an earlier post the difference between the two drugs and their specific sensations.

I was on effexor. I know this. Yet, as I stated before there are none of the cravings. Yes, you are correct for some people anti-depressants do create a feeling of well being. I used the word "well being" for my own use of ativan.,as it calms my anxiety. I have been on many combinations of anti-depressants and nothing has worked with me. Peter Levine mentions in "Waking the Tiger" that many with PTSD have a difficult time with medications because their nervous systems are frozen in a panic state. So for some the anti-depressants just have no effect.

As far as Anti-depressant they are not considered addictive substances.
By Whom??


I have heard it from many professor’s in different classes throughout my years in school. I have to take a pharmacology class every two years for continuing education to keep my degree. As I take these at UCLA where they have research doctors teaching I trust what they say. Also having been on this myself, I have experienced the differences. Hence the reason I rarely take the ativan.

 

[rallynut78]

Thank you all for the awesome information and wealth of shard experience.

I just got prescribed .5 mgs of ativan today and took my first pill a few hours ago. it is SUCH a relief to finally have a break from the anxiety. good to know about the potential for dependence. I just spent the weekend puking my guts out because the dope at the VA titrated me off of effexor to quick.

I really do appriciate the perspective on this. glad i found this forum. it's more helpful than learning how to put a 4" lift under my jeep on the jeep forum :wink:

 

[linasmom]

bratgrrl,

Thanks for coming back. I do have some thoughts regarding your post - specifically what constitutes "uncontrollable cravings" and how that is defined within the psychiatric community. But more importantly, how we can flush that out on a more philosophical level - however, that will take more brain power than I have right now (it's 11:30 pm here) to put those thoughts down at the moment but will come back tomorrow and try to articulate my feelings about it.

I do want to let you know that I believe addiction is a disease. I come from a long line of alcoholics and drug addicts. One uncle, now dead, actually owned a very nice rehabilitation clinic in Florida - but passed a few years ago due to Hep C complications. My father, with whom I live, is a heroin addict and has been on methadone maintenance for the past 15 years.

Anyway, I will be back tomorrow to discuss the thoughts I mentioned earlier in this post.

Best,
Rachel

 

[Seeking_Nirvana]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Here is my experience with Valium.

I get prescribed more than I need and have a lot left over at refill time. I have been prescribed 10 mg 2 X day for the past 10 years and never took the whole script in one month *ever*

When I was pregnant I quit taking Valium cold turkey and never had a problem with it. But couldn't quit taking Ambien completely. To be honest, I'm psychologically addicted to Ambien not Valium. Also, my body (not mind) is addicted to Adderall, which I'm detoxing from as I speak.

I think it all depends on the person and their body chemistry.

My 2 cents on my experiences
Tammy

 

[linasmom]

Tammy -

Thanks for posting this - as this brings up a personal point for/about me - I, too, have been able to come off of benzos cold turkey for months with no problems - not ONE side effect.

Currently, I'm withdrawing from Effexor and honestly, I've never experienced anything like this (and I've taken quite a number of drugs - legal and illegal). I started withdrawing a couple of weeks ago and I'm still not completely off the drug because my body can not handle coming off cold turkey (I tried).

 

[linasmom]

Hi Bratgrrl,

I've had time now to put my thoughts together.

First, while not purposely trying to buck academia, and while I respect your education it would be nice to discuss issues that are factually based and logically based. Sometimes, there is a lack of free thought in academia if you allow it.

With regards to "uncontrollable cravings" - I disagree with anyone posturing on the side of anti-depressants not inducing uncontrollable cravings (for some people). There are tons of articles and videos from people who give first person accounts of their own "uncontrollable cravings" while attempting to withdrawal from antidepressants. People whose bodies and minds were in so much pain, they had to continue taking the medication. Simply because a medication does not get a person high does not mean that it does not produce an uncontrollable craving. We can not post live links to outside websites on this forum so I can't post this information but it's very easily attainable.

While I understand that you've never stolen money to cop your antidepressant but have done so to get your benzo or opiate fix, that does not negate the addictive element of antidepressants. It is unfair to compare how "uncontrolled" the cravings are from one drug to another and then attempt to place a label of "addictive" or "non addictive" based on that difference. If there is any form, whatsoever, of a medication involving "uncontrollable cravings" no matter the level, then it is addictive.

Personally, I feel like your argument sits very much in a black and white state and that is a problem, mostly because it misleads. When a definition of something so important like "addiction" involves such a subjective and abstract term like "uncontrolled cravings", it leaves open a mess of interpretation that is mostly dictated by academia or large corporations. Those same people, in my personal opinion, have tricked too many of us into believing that the bodily cravings we receive from antidepressants is a "phenomenon" and the ones we receive from any feel good/vice drug is "addictive".

Maybe the religious right wrote these definitions, who knows. All I know is that I have a thinking/active brain, one that is not so easily convinced of an abstract definition because someone else says so.

And really, the proof is in the pudding - first hand accounts. Mine included.

The DSM and PDR continually updates itself for a reason: because none of these issues resolve in a fixed state. To declare "antidepressants are non addictive" is shamefully irresponsible.

All I've asked from this post is that we try to level the playing field.

Best,
Rachel

*edit to add*:

Also, not that I'm disclaiming that you've never stolen money for a benzo fix - you're the only person I know of who has stolen money to get a benzo fix - they are *pound for pound* the cheapest "high" you can get, with pot running in at a very close second. I've never seen anyone standing on the corner strictly hustling benzos. The reason you've never stolen money for antidepressants could very well be that doctors hand them out like candy.

 

[becvan]

I agree whole heartedly with Rachel. Many, many pharmaceutical companies are forced to turn around and add an addictive warning. The only reason that anti-depressants (mostly SSRI's) are not listed as addictive is to cover their behinds.

Anti-depressants are JUST AS ADDICTIVE as the benzo's. Try coming off them cold turkey sometime. It's most unpleasant.

Doctors are woefully uneducated on the addictive qualities of both. They are a huge part of the problem when it comes to these types of drugs. (This is all of North America) They will just keep handing out scripts and tell patients not to worry. It's common and has become a HUGE problem. Drug rehabs are filled with patients addicted to their prescriptions, because doctors are completely ignorant on the subject.

As far as I'm concerned both types are equally dangerous and should be used with extreme caution and NOT long term.

I'm on remeron and know I'm addicted at this point. However I need to take it until the bulk of my therapy is done.. my therapist and psych already have a plan for weaning me off when the time comes and carefully watch my dosages and how much I use. I went into using this medication with the full knowledge of what it does and what I will face later. I made an informed choice. Trying to say that anti-depressants are not addictive means patients are making uninformed choices. It is misleading and dishonest of the entire medical community.

bec

 

[becvan]

Also, not that I'm disclaiming that you've never stolen money for a benzo fix - you're the only person I know of who has stolen money to get a benzo fix - they are *pound for pound* the cheapest "high" you can get, with pot running in at a very close second. I've never seen anyone standing on the corner strictly hustling benzos. The reason you've never stolen money for antidepressants could very well be that doctors hand them out like candy.

This is an everyday occurrence where I live and it includes anti-depressants. I could sit outside my door and watch over a dozen transactions taking place. Most kids here are addicted and they ALL steal from their parents, neighbours friends.. whomever, to get the new "dope." (There are plenty of adults doing the same, and three regular prescription dealers...) Its more popular then pot!!

bec

 

[Seeking_Nirvana]

This is seriously strange, but I paid my friend $20.00 to get me Nexium because her insurance is better than mine. Does this mean I'm addicted or abusing Nexuim? It means I can't afford it, but I'm breaking the law.

When it comes to medication I think that I can't follow what the doctors say. I follow what works for me from past experiences, and lack of money to pay for my prescriptions.

Seriously, $60 for 30 pills of Nexium is ridiculous and I can't live without it. Not because I 'crave' it but because I'm in severe pain without it. But if I paid my friend $20 for a script of Valium or Adderall then most people would freak and tell me I'm addicted.

This thread is going no where. LOL

Tammy

 

[Lucy Loo]

Physical Dependence vs Addiction

There is physical dependence and there is addiction. You can have physical dependence without addiction. I don't think you can have addiction without physical dependence.

Physical dependence is when your body has become accustomed to the drug that is being taken. It is what causes withdrawals when the drug is no longer taken. An example of a person with physical dependence: a man starts taking Darvocet for a back injury....he takes 3 a day as prescribed, enough to get rid of the pain, but not enough for him to ever really get a taste of the "high" that might entice him to take more than what is prescribed him. Abruptly, he stops the medication. Of course his body is going to go through withdrawal, the process of the body looking for something that it has gotten used to for so long. And in that way, the person may crave the drug to relieve the discomfort they are feeling (I'm not minimizing the discomfort someone might feel; I believe you when you say it can be hell).

Addiction on the other hand involves more of a change in the mental hardwiring of a person....there becomes a greater mental "need" or desire for the drug. There is the physical side too, but with addiction the craving in one's mind is more severe (for whatever reason...the physical changes to the receptors in our heads or whatever). And probably the physical withdrawal feels that much more heightened as you are fighting a battle on two fronts: your mind and your body.

I have limited experience with antidepressants - I've been on Prozac, Paxil, and a few others and never had side effects when I stopped taking them. Some of the others that I've heard people say are hard to come off of, like Efexor, I've never tried.

I am an alcoholic and addict, so I have some experience in that arena. The difference between physical dependence and addiction was recently explained to me, and I'm not sure I've conveyed it real clearly, but I did the best I could.

Hope that helps.