Brainwashing

[Sideways]

@Ronin - I don't think I can seperate it. I can argue the conversation from a purely intellectual position, say as "every child in the world...", but I can't apply it to me. And I can't apply it to the other girls he abused either - they interfere with what he taught me, other girls being abused by him makes what he taught me illogical. But instead of that taking hold, my brain just stalls and goes completely blank.

@Charleh - I've tried summaries of what he taught me, but it didn't get me very far. I tried an exposure exercise trying to work with statements that I could accept, slowly building up to the more critical statements. But I kept getting stuck when it started to matter. He had a pretty comprehensive theory that he taught me, and when his theory hits a wall, he uses argumentative trump cards, like "Faith doesn't fit your laws", or "Nobody will be able to understand". Coz it's God's "higher purpose". So if my T pushes too hard, their the statements that I end up throwingat her, over and over: "He told me that nobody else would understand".

I don't buy it, I don't think. I mean, I don't buy his argument - intellectually I can tell it's bogus (and I'm not even sure if I believe in God, and if I did, I'm pretty sure he's got better stuff to do with his omnipotence). But when I try and take the conditioned beliefs away, there's nothing there. I can't seem to get my brain to fill in the gaps, it just freezes over.

Coach Ragdoll has her job cut out for her. Feels like trying to teach a fish how to play basketball.

 

[joeylittle]

I don't know what it is like to be brainwashed. But two things that help me, when I'm trying to figure out what "I" actually think. I don't see myself as a person, I have a kind of negative self-identity, or a non-identity; so for me, these are exercises in creating and cultivating a 'self', kind of from the ground up.

1) Making a list of my core values. This isn't as hard as it might sound. Just write down the qualities that you believe a human being should have. The stuff you admire. Turns out, that's what your value system is. Now, you probably will see the disconnect between your list, and what you know is in your head about who you think you are (based on the thoughts that were forced into you) - don't get hung up on that. Just make the list, put it on a piece of paper, and tape it up somewhere you'll see it everyday. One way you can activate your list is to pick one of those things one day, and find a way to create it in your environment that day.

So, example: I value insight. So, when going through my day (If I picked 'insight'), I am tuned into the concept, and being aware of either experiencing a moment of it for myself, or seeing someone else experience it, or having it given to me, or giving it to someone.
You can also do it in reverse; pick one, think back over your day, and find an example of it. These are allowed to be simple little things. Like, I realized today that my cats have trained me to give them the treats that they each specifically like. OK - I had a moment of insight.

2) Try and write down positive things you are good at. This was - and is - incredibly hard for me. It can be a very upsetting exercise, actually. And to be honest, there is really only one thing on my list, that is really truly on the list. It's not what I've been told I'm good at, or what I can deduce that I'm good at - it's something I genuinely believe about myself, and it is rock-solid. When we did this (in PHP), it took me an hour to come up with this one thing. (Just saying - it can be hard, if you hate yourself).

I come back to this exercise periodically. And over the last year, two years, I have noticed other things sometimes creep up onto the list. They don't stick, I don't have that degree of confidence in them yet. But they linger around the edges, and the more they do that, the more 'real' they seem.

It's got nothing to do with external validation. It's everything to do with slow self-reflection, knowing the things I value and therefore the things I consider positive (since those two are pretty intertwined automatically) - and allowing myself to look at where the possibilities are for "my" good things, as objectively as possible.

Like I said - not about undoing any brainwashing. More about doing identity-creation.

 

[Deleted member 8714]

My last therapist gave me an assignment. I had to write a piece in my father's mindset and words. It was powerful for me to realize finally that I wasn't my father. His thoughts and actions and beliefs weren't mine. Only by writing the story from his point of view could I see that.

My father had psychologically, emotionally, mentally, physically, and sexually abused and tortured me in various ways. Plus I had spent a whole summer with him when I was 10. A lot of indoctrination occurred during that time with him.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

How

VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY slowly. I say that because A, it takes a huge amount of time to really fight the war in my head and then B, takes a huge amount of time for anything my therapist says to then fight their way through.

I started out 8 yrs ago what one would call brainwashed. I wasn't abused in any way per me. Everything they did and what happened was right and just and godly.

Today that has changed. What its replaced with is what my therapist helped me fill in. But it is not "easy street" in any way shape or form and takes a very long time. There will be holes and you will have a war in your head over this but I think never giving up in that war is what allowed me to move from where I started to where I am today.

Part of me is still programmed. For sure. I still recite their bible unconsciencely. I still have thoughts that is of the cult. It makes me upset but I have to be patient and just keep fighting it.

 

[Sideways]

Everything they did and what happened was right and just and godly.

I know right?

Today's group dealing with "Anger", and my comment was "I want to be angry at him, I feel like I deserve to be angry at him. But I'm not angry, because I feel lucky that he found me and helped me learn".

I got shut up by the group facilitator. She told me that was something I would need to save for my one on one time, because I was upsetting the other group members. I get that not everyone has trauma bonding and conditioning issues, but talk about invalidating.

So I went to my one on one session and completely collapsed into a sobbing mess, heaving out statements about how I know my experience isn't the same as everyone else's, but it's just as valid. I'm here seeking help with trauma (it's a trauma group) as legitimately as everyone else, and just because my experience is different (most people are here from abuse in a family/domestic context), doesn't mean I should be silenced. Hell, it was my suggestion to do Anger as this weeks topic because I want to get friggin angry at him. I deserve to be angry at him, instead of seeing him as the hero in my life.

The upshot is, ironically, that I am now quite angry. But I'm angry because apparently my experience of trauma is "too uncomfortable" for me to be allowed to share with the rest of the group on the same badis that everyone else is. Everyone else was allowed to talk about how they feel, so why the hell can't I? Because I use terms that most of them haven't heard, like "conditoning", and "trauma bonding" (seriously, the group facilitaor had to check with me, "Do you mean, like, Stockholm Syndrome?"

Faaaark:banghead::banghead::banghead:

So then I went to yoga and cried some more.:cry:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

"Do you mean, like, Stockholm Syndrome?"

Seriously? A hospital?

Everyone else was allowed to talk about how they feel, so why the hell can't I?

I would have asked that right then and there. Because you should be able to. It is as vaild and you have your own issues.

My therapist asked me once "why is it do you think there arent any active forums for cult survivors?" (I looked as Rick Ross's site isnt active) and I said "because no one wants to talk about or listen to it. Victims dont realize it was bad or are so shameful for what they did and/or believed and it makes other people uncomfortable. People fear what they do not understand."

He liked my answer to that.

It is quite sad as there are MANY more cults out there then people realize and many are still active like The Family (formally The Children Of God) and we have 20 somethings coming out of there now and they have these issues that no one wants to hear.

Thank god I got a therapist that was experienced in cults and the trauma specific to them and one that was willing to learn in addition to his experience.

Id stand right up and say what you just did. Your trauma is just as vaild and your issues are just as vaild as are your emotions or lack of emotions and you have every single right to express them and talk about them and get help for them in a group setting. Sorry if it is hard to hear but everyone needs to get over it, put on their big girl panties and go educate themselves!

 

[Sideways]

Sorry if it is hard to hear but everyone needs to get over it, put on their big girl panties and go educate themselves!

Can you come along and say that for me? My big girl panties get swapped for "don't rock the boat" panties when I go into group. I tend to retreat into engaging other group members on how they're feeling and helping them explore that (which seems to be very acceptable!).

Bah! Get ANGRY Ragdoll!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

My big girl panties get swapped for "don't rock the boat" panties

I meant them, not you. But i understand. Id so go with you if I could but im there in spirit! :hug:

 

[ladee]

The great thing Ragdoll is she may have stopped your voice..but she didnt stop the anger and she got you in touch with your RIGHT to be angry.
The anger is going OUT you are not turning it toward yourself.
What a huge breakthru.

 

[Sideways]

@ladee - urgh! Day 1 of a 3 week program. Feeling v queasy, wish I had my dog with me to make it all better. You may need to prop me up for a while, anger turns out to be pretty intense as emotions go, regardless of wheremI'm directing it or why:dead:

 

[ladee]

Here to prop you up!
Anger and rage are feelings I am very familiar with.
I am more self regulated than I've ever been.
And it may make you feel out of control. Because in rage we are out of control.
So absolutely here for you.
Understanding, listening, all you have to do is feel what needs to be felt. It is exhausting in a different way.
But the fact that she shut you down at such a crucial turning point in your recovery..and you were still angry!! A milestone. A huge breakthru.
Your words..your thoughts..not his..HUGE.
Nothing to be afraid of..you have spent years laying the groundwork for this healing
Work.
When we get to the place of letting it "out" it dies a quicker death because the light hits it. Inside..it just becomes a bigger mushroom in the dark.
Full support. Propping
You up.
And the "L" word!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@Ragdoll Circus, I'm here as well to help the proping you up! :stop: ("prop up smilie" lol. Only one even close). :hug: