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Calling All Suffers And Supprters

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There are very few people who have traumatic memories who don't have serious doubts about them, due to their fragmentary nature.

Two things going on here though:

Whether the history was as is perceived / feared it was,

And whether those connections present a present-time danger.

... Or more like three things, if that danger's lethal is entirely different question.

The danger of Milo Papa's wife committing suicide is a pretty real one. All the others? May not be as real.
 
Rudy Rummel's count of democide included famine, imperialism, death from disease, forced labor, etc. It is hardly proof that the US is out hunting it's citizens.... also, if you specifically looks at his charts, the US is not listed as a country with major democide. We're all about combat and collateral damage here... not genocide and mass murder by the government.

you are at far greater risk of being killed by a government than a private individual or private sector gang, or in a war.

This is 'Merica, and I can safely say more people are murdered here by individuals than the government. I think we have something like 14-15,000 murders a year here. You are infinitely more likely to get killed by a regular Joe in the U.S of A.

Also, it's not hard to find examples of politicians acting batshit crazy or saying stupid things in the US if you keep looking at the GOP. Just because they are flapping their gums doesn't mean anybody's lives are in danger. Especially Donald Trump... :banghead:. We also have the death penalty in the US, so calling for execution here, especially for treason, is not an indicator of illuminati-type programs.

To each their own, but I tend to be a very rational thinker, and conspiracy theories just don't do it for me. Pics or it didn't happen, primary sources, not secondary accounts.

If the OP is worried about caring for his spouse and family as the non-traumatized supporting partner in a PTSD relationship, he needs to figure out exactly what is going on, and deal with it rationally. That means his job is not to feed into irrational fears or paranoia unless there is a damn good reason to. His job is to get his wife the helps she needs and to take care of his kids. She obviously has PTSD and trauma, feels extremely threatened, and is suffering. He needs to be the rock now.

Hell, my vet honestly thinks that the VA is out to get him sometimes. Like trying to mess with his meds for spite, switching him to doctors he hates on purpose, or giving him substandard care so he will just die. What is more likely? That some government entity is so focused on one person out of the millions that it deals with, that it is carrying out some dastardly plan to make his life miserable... or that they are just inept at taking care of our vets in general? It is bloody obvious that they couldn't take a piss without wetting the front of their pants, and wouldn't be organized enough to carry out secret squirrel missions to target my vet.

He is an educated, mostly rational man, but because of his PTSD, he still has those periods of paranoia/cognitive distortions. My job is not to encourage that mess... my job is to be the rational one. If I participated and egged it on, he would be sitting in the darkened house peeking out the blinds, off his meds and untreated, watching for VA operatives. Is it healthier for me to let that happen, or for me to be the calm, rational voice of reason?

If the OP is concerned that somebody is out to kill his family, then he needs to determine if the threat is real, or if it is the product of his wife's PTSD. It is definitely more prudent to check some primary sources (as in the specific declassified documents, not somebody's story about them) and see the proof for himself, than to pack up his family and disappear into the night.
 
I think one issue with this is - say cults, think of religious lunatics neck deep in narcotrafficking & people trafficking, pull this sort of shit often. Naming whoever of them has any political / military ties / experience, as 'they're all powerful and out to get you'.

Verifying the stories becomes difficult, because the abuse IS real, the deception as well construed out of multiple partial truths & abuses, and foundation of it is real, just so not in the way victims are fed to think of.

And then there's all the fun of PTSD & paranoia & drug induced disorders & et cetera ad nauseam that makes dealing with this super fun.

(Not saying 'new world order' crap is real. Saying specific groups benefiting from that disinfo & abusing people with that disinfo are very real.)
 
We also have the death penalty in the US, so calling for execution here, especially for treason, is not an indicator of illuminati-type programs.

Or just to start with Merika - combine access to weapons & Christian loonies & wannabe matering aspiring leader in a small town & narcotics and you have a mess.

Or porn industry & army fetish & white collar jobs assholes that need their asses covered.

Or ex-army people raised elsewhere that just like blood too much and are hell bent on finding how & where, not if & why not.

Or, or, or. Basically saying don't think movies, and don't think legit & clean politics, when thinking of this.

'The government' in those narratives doesn't tend to be proper political representation, more like @Anarchy said, incompetent gang-style pricks with a power fetish, trying on what much they can do and with what ease.

My previous points stand though: ways out & recovery can be hella lot more simpler, using already available tools.

((This needs hella more editing, I'm aware. I don't have proper language for speaking up on this, I don't think.))
 
Oh hell yes!
That is incredibly well put. I wonder whether @anthony would consider a multi like button that we could buy credit for, as a fund raiser? Say $5 Oz (can you still buy a soda for that? the Oz dollar has been receiving a hammering with the commodities bubble popping) per multi like, and some hideous number of "likes received" to the person receiving a multi like, say 10?

back to the matter at hand. @milos papa 's wife.

We're not party to what she has experienced, or what's in her book and how sensitive it might be. I'd like to read it, but don't want to blow her confidentiality here.

I've only worked in Africa (RSA Angola and Kenya) you (@Cashew ) grew up there! :eek: but I think we've both seen what state sector violence looks like, it is less well hid in Africa. Some of those who've grown up on the dark continent (North America) may not have, or may think that those who were on the receiving end, somehow justly deserved to be.

Anyway, we do not have any way to know what Papa's wife may have exposed, whom might get themselves upset at it and how capable those people might be of doing harm.

As you (Cashew) clearly articulate, the threat doesn't need to come all the way from the big 0 in the oval office. an offended wannabe with a pitchfork is all it need take.

What I've let myself get side tracked from, are the points of how to help the lady regain her sense of personal and family safety and her sense of confident and positive self agency.

None of that is achieved by invalidation, and if @Sweetpea76 's comments here are an indicator. I suspect that she needs to do some swatting up on validation and self agency.

OK, self agency comes in both flavours, positive and negative. Papa's lady is currently on the negative, she is claiming agency for endangering herself and family.

she is missing the positive aspects, she has survived something no one should have ever experienced, and was put in that situation by someone who should have been protecting her as a child, what's more, the implicated parent apparently basks in the false image that he is some sort of humanitarian (as apparently did Marquis du Sade ).

She has survived that, she has recovered the memories, and to a large extent healed, she has shared her experience in a book. She has a caring partner and from his posting name a son as well. She is some woman! and she needs validating and cheerleading for that.

A big part of self agency is making our own decisions and owning responsibility and consequences for when they go wrong. obviously with one or two sorts of mistakes, you are not around to own the consequences.

One of those sorts of mistakes is suicide.

Let's start by examining some of the distorted cognitions that might be present in a suicidal person.

"It will be better / safer for others when I've gone"
Really? they can all run away now if they wanted to, or call for an ambulance to get you hospitalised, but they haven't. could there be some reasons for that? what might they be?

"I'm bad"
This is quite often an emotional flashback. A child internalizes finding themselves in a bad situation as "I'm bad", rather than I'm an ok or good person who has found myself for whatever reason in a bad situation. A hug, validation that yes, you are feeling that, but it does not mean that it is the case now, and some help grounding from the flashback should help.

"Death will be peaceful"
No one ever came back to say one way or the other, it might be never ending un-endurable torture for all we know. Irreverance is absolutely fine, and even helpful, don't walk on eggshells, quips like "if you suicide, your not going to be around to... (whatever you know that matters to her - water favourite plant, do her favourite hobby)"

Papa
If she is suicidal, can you get her to committ to staying alive for a period of time?

There are several tactics for selling the commitment, and for getting her to therapy and learning some skills:
Validation and acceptance, yes she is feeling bad, and yes she has been through shit that no one should go through, so she is well entitled to have her present feelings (never ever invalidate her, by denying that she feels the way she does, or by telling her that she is not entitled to feel the way she does, invalidation is an open invitation for the emotions to escalate, and we know what the ultimate escalation is... a completed suicide).

Cheerleading, she has come through it and largely healed, she has written a book and told her story, she has made huge progress, this is another step on that path.

Door in the face
Ask her to committ to staying alive for (for example) a year... if she refuses, validate that ok, given the present circumstances, that is understandable, she is under a huge amount of frightening stress, cheerlead, that she has shown that she can overcome incredible obstacles when she puts her mind to it,and that you have no doubt that she can take this in smaller steps, so how about (again for example) committing to stay alive for a month?

Foot in the door
ok, you committed to staying alive for a month, we are three weeks into that month now, and, yes, we have had our good days and our bad, but on the whole, you are coming accross as much stronger and more committed, do you feel trhat you can committ for next month as well? yes! great! that seemed a lot easier for you, do you think we can go to six weeks?

OK

Three of the big names in trauma
Marsha Linehan, who spent much of her life chronicly suicidal and with urges to self harm, her arms are a mass of cut and burn scars. She developed Dialectical Behavioural Therapy. It is structured to keep clients committed to therapy and teaches key skills for emotional resilience, interpersonal effectiveness and mindfulness (the strategies I outlined above are drawn from DBT).
It is the only therapy which has so far been shown to be effective at treating suicidality. It is popularly associated with being for borderline personality disorder - but linehan's intent was to treat suicidality.. The significant overlap between BPD and suicidality mmeans that to treat suicidality and provide suicidal people with skills for living, also treats much of BPD.

If you are near a biggish urban area, maybe see if you can get your wife into a DBT program, especially if it is one where you can attend the skills training group as well. There is very little study of what works if someone is suicidal, most clinical trials exclude suicidal participants. DBT is shown to work

Judith Herman and Bessel van der Kolk.
Herman was the lady who's family had fallen foul of senator McCarthy's purges.
van der Kolk participated in the setting up of the South African Peace and reconcilliation process.
both have worked with political refugees and people who have been subject to brainwashing. I'm guessing that both will be personally very sympathetic to someone who was a child victim of cold war brain washing experiments.

I know that other board members have found other big name researchers to be very approachable and helpful. Knowing something of van der Kolk's and Herman's personal views, I suspect that they could be very sympathetic and helpful.

Best of luck to both of you
 
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We also have the death penalty in the US, so calling for execution here, especially for treason, is not an indicator of illuminati-type programs.

First off, please, never smear me or conflate my comments with implying "illuminati-type programs" I have already addressed that general tactic in an earlier comment:

There are also ridiculous theories, deliberately put about, in order to allow people with genuine information to be dismissed as, yes, as nutters.
My arguments are based on economic reasoning of incentives and costs. I Illustrate them with historical examples. Admittedly I do not always provide the whole logical chain from first principles, simply because it is long and most people soon switch off. None of what I comment requires the guiding hand of some secret group. It is a cheap trick that neither works nor becomes you.


Secondly, what did Snowdon do in order to be accused of “treason”?


He informed the public (via printed publications) of what the gang that calls itself government, was doing.


What has Milo's Papa's wife done?


She informed the public (via printed publications) of what the gang that calls itself government, was doing. Albeit she has received less coverage than Snowdon, and her information was some years older than Snowdon's.


Not much difference is there?


Rudy Rummel's count of democide included famine, imperialism, death from disease, forced labor, etc. It is hardly proof that the US is out hunting it's citizens.... also, if you specifically looks at his charts, the US is not listed as a country with major democide. We're all about combat and collateral damage here... not genocide and mass murder by the government.
The US did its worst in the nineteenth century, for example unilaterally reneging treaties, then proceeding to wage total wars of extermination on the existing inhabitants on the turf which the f'eral government claimed. In the twentieth century (which Rummel used as the limit of his research), the largest part of the aggression was against the people living on turf other gangs, and in the forms of war and terrorism, neither of which were the subject of Rummel's research, but that comparatively smaller total at home, hardly makes the united state a cuddly little puppy, and it does not imply that the united state was not in the process of aggressing against non aggressive people living on the turf it claimed.


As regards death by other means than direct physical violence. Look a little deeper, and you will find the largest of the government made fammines consist of the Ukrainian Holodomore in 1933, in which all supplies of grain and agricultural tools were removed by the Soviet army, and any peasant seen picking up a grain from the ground or from a growing crop was shot. Approximately 6 million died.

Then the bigger and later famines which were integral to the Chinese policies of "Great Leap Forward" and "Cultural Revolution". According to Jung Chan and Halliday, Mao used reported death tolls as a metric to assess how diligently the policies were being implemented in the different provinces.

You may well split hairs as to whether those 70 to 80 million fammine deaths, or the deaths from hypothermia, scurvy, typhus malnutrition, human vivisection etc in various forced labour camps, constitute "murder", but they certainly constitute un natural death as a direct result of government policy.

To each their own, but I tend to be a very rational thinker, and conspiracy theories just don't do it for me. Pics or it didn't happen, primary sources, not secondary accounts.
Hmmm, which archives would you like me to bring you original documents from first?

In the case of the Ukranian Holodomore, documentary evidence is still largely classified in Russian archives (the Putin regime takes a very dim view of criticism of the soviets), at the time it happened news of it was smuggled out to the west in diplomatic bags by two British journalists, Gareth Jones and Malcolm Muggeridge. Even then, they had difficulty in getting the [then Manchester] guardian newspaper to publish. In other mainstream outlets, for example the NYT, pulitzer prize winner, Walter Duranty, scoffed at the idea of a fammine. Jones was kidnapped and murdered a year later by communist rebels in China, who possibly realized who they had caught.

In the case of China, Mao's party is still in charge. Works critical 0f Mao are banned, and dirty washing does not get aired.

The really incriminating stuff was rarely ever committed to writing, and in the cases where it was documented, is seldom declassified. Note that for several centuries, Niccolo Machiavelli's writings were on the list of works which Roman Catholic faithful were forbidden to read. Institutions which exercise political power, do not like even the principals of their inner workings exposed to the masses that they seek to rule over. The costs and incentives which humans assess before acting do not change, and Machiavelli's notes of guidance to a young Italian oligarch are still essentially true in politics today, hence the work's popularity with present day managers.

It is nice rhetorical trick, to set the standard of proof required for someone whom you disagree with to a level that is both unachievable in this medium, and which if attempted, results in such long posts that they're likely to be accused of thread hijacking and thus barred from the thread.

Been there before, not going there again.

I hope that you do not apply the solipsistic levels of invalidation you have aired for Milo's Papa's wife in this thread, in your primary relationship. To do so would constitute abuse.
 
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Don't even get me started on Communism and denial & gaslight en masse, we'd be here tomorrow and it's still nothing new, Who Benefits? question useful.

But to topic: As far as I know from people who had contact with Van der Kolk, they've recommended him as very concerned and resourceful, empathic individual.

Don't know of anyone knowing Mrs. Herman so cannot say.

As far as psychiatric help, I wouldn't give up on looking in trauma centers; one doesn't have to state the exact nature of the abuse, 'extreme and prolonged abuse' will do.

@Milo's papa: What are strengths of both of you? And how to work with the weaknesses? And what keeps both of you safe and at your best while you figure where the gap between strengths and weaknesses is and how to bridge it?
 
@Anarchy, please stop tagging me. I merely offered my opinion that the OP check to make sure the threat to his family was valid before going into hiding or encouraging delusional or irrational thinking or paranoia... in other words checking to make sure the proverbial hoof beats he head really were zebras and not horses. You are the one that came in here with both guns blazing for me. I've responded a time or two, but I am done now. It is pointless to even address any of the historical examples and/or sources you post. You seem to be taking any kind of opposing view as a personal insult or attack.

The point I keep repeating is that, per the OP's post, is that his wife is terrified and "freaking out" because of a book she read, written by god knows who, with god know what kind of source bias. She was doubting her memories were real, and her therapist doesn't think the threat is real. In this case, her supporter needs to be the rational one, check out a few things, and be the voice of reason.

If trying to be rational is gaslighting, invalidating, smearing... what have you, then I guess I am. I still think suggesting a little fact checking is less dangerous than suggesting the OP sneak off with his family and go into hiding without checking anything.

With that, I am done with this thread. Peace out.
 
Milo's Papa,
Sorry or what your wife endured, and the worries that you are both now experiencing.

Judit...
Anarchy, to start I want to say thank you for believing this can actually happen.
My wife has been on a "puppy and kittens" rule for the past 7 years. We were not allowed to do any type of verification of her memories. However, her best friend and her trauma therapist did all types of research and found out that her claims were 100% verifiable.
The Program that she was involved in was called before a Congressional hearing, but Congress was told that all the paperwork regarding this program had been destroyed when the program was shut down. It turned out that the budget office still had all of their paperwork and they delivered it to the Congressional hearing the following day.
These are the documents that the book my wife read was based on.
These documents verify everything that my wife remembered about this program.
My wife is not suicidal by a long shot. She's just plain scared. She wrote her book because she has decided to "live with her eyes wide open" and face her past head-on.
 
Papa, hugs if you'll accept them. :hug:

Thanks for the clarification on her current state and that she isn't suicidal.

I've done some reading of your back posts, and picked up the point that your wife used to receive calls from her abusers, threatening her to keep silent or else...

Also this is very telling: "The Program that she was involved in was called before a Congressional hearing, but Congress was told that all the paperwork regarding this program had been destroyed when the program was shut down. It turned out that the budget office still had all of their paperwork and they delivered it to the Congressional hearing the following day."

Those abusers fear exposure. They've done shit that they know is totally unforgivable, even by the all time low standards of the cold war.

I'm guessing that the abuse took place in the 60's or 70's, making you and your wife, at least in your 40s or 50s, and her youngest abusers probably at least in their 60s, with the ones in charge of the abuse now in their mid 70s or beyond?

I'm going to draw some analogies to try to flesh out how much or how little of a risk those surviving abusers might pose. Like everything else I type, if you are not entirely satisfied with it, there is a full refund available, of every penny you paid for it;)

Negatives first
Some time ago I got into a discussion about standards in politics, and I pointed out that there were serious and credible allegations about a child sex abuse ring amongst senior British politicians. The other people present tended to be of the puppies and kittens view, or the few bad apples view.

A few months back, one of the guys, who's a cop, said that he was biting his tongue, and couldn't speak during the discussion, because he was investigating exactly that - and it has since become public, so he can say that yes, there was indeed a ring, although he can't disclose specifics because some of them still might go to trial.

In politics, as in other gangs, there is a reciprocity between the present leadership, and the oldies. It seems to be understood that being favoured and picked for development comes with an obligation to look after your sponsor and their reputation, until long after they have died. There is also an element of either apprenticeship or gang initiation, showing that the youngsters are willing to go the whole way, and in the process giving their superiors some big dirt on them.

In the book of Genesis, Abraham's god demanded that Abraham prove his loyalty by sacrificing his son. The old testament bull horned idol, moloch, was worshipped by throwing your own infant to die in the fire in the idol's belly. - Is this what your wife's father used her for? a child sacrifice to show his loyalty to and gain the favour of a secular moloch?

The reciprocity also seems to cross departmental and political party lines, if I can quote a British example, of Tony B Liar, when he was prime minister, ending an investigation into Tory figures iirc accepting Saudi money. B Liar, invoked "the national interest". My personal interpretation of that was as an overt signal along the lines "I'm burying tory party dirt, future tories can return the favour and bury any of my dirt that might come out".
Actual inter party conflict, rather than the circus you see in the media, would be highly damaging to the reputation of the whole institution of government. both sides will have plenty of dirt, so it is much safer for them to keep their faux disputes within carefully managed limits, and to keep their cronyist gravy train of perks and pork rolling.

Coming back to the politician CSA ring. One of the big problems for prosecuting the (still alleged) perps, is the very poor credibility in a court witness stand, of many of the victims. These were typically children sourced from state sector orphanages, and selected because they had few if any family connections. Those children, growing up un loved, abused and brutalised, or at least the ones who are still alive, are now in their forties and fifties and many have long criminal records including offences as serious as murder and attempted murder.

Next time I see the cop (even the worst institutions have some good people in them), I need to remember to ask him to look into how safe those convictions are - are some of them stitch ups to intimidate and discredit witnesses? The senior politicians are typically high ranking lawyers, and one of the alleged abusers Leon Britten (died earlier this year) was "home secretary", so was in charge of the police and the prisons.

As in a crappy mafia story (a mafia is just a wannabe or a has been, government/ a government is just the biggest gang, that has taken over a turf), it is unlikely that any specific instructions to harm someone would ever be found:
"Hey Rocco, That guy with the bar on Second and Maddison, he's got no respect. I'd like you to go talk to him, see if you can't get him to do business..."

Positives
St Augustine (354 AD - 430AD),
City of God
Chapter 4.—How Like Kingdoms Without Justice are to Robberies.

Justice being taken away, then, what are kingdoms but great robberies? For what are robberies themselves, but little kingdoms? The band itself is made up of men; it is ruled by the authority of a prince, it is knit together by the pact of the confederacy; the booty is divided by the law agreed on. If, by the admittance of abandoned men, this evil increases to such a degree that it holds places, fixes abodes, takes possession of cities, and subdues peoples, it assumes the more plainly the name of a kingdom, because the reality is now manifestly conferred on it, not by the removal of covetousness, but by the addition of impunity. Indeed, that was an apt and true reply which was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride, “What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it with a great fleet art styled emperor.”

But how do smash and grab bandits who come down from the hills and run back to the hills to hide, or pirates from the sea, become emperors, when they are far outnumbered by decent, productive people?

Trickery, the employment of an army of grimmor wormtongues, of intellectual bodyguards, the policy of divide and rule and the modern equivalent of "bread and circuses"

Etienne de la Boetie (1530 -1563) in his "Discourse on voluntary servitude" notes that if consent for the rule of the tyrant is withdrawn, he will fall, as surely as if he was pushed.

Other little beauties like Mencken's "...The art of practical politics consists of keeping the electorate alarmed and hence clamorous to be lead to safety, this is achieved by menacing them with an endless string of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary". Say much the same thing. The following clip from the fictional film "V for Vendetta" adapted from Allan Moore's graphic novel, illustrates that beautifully. The dictator is begining to feel his grip on power being threatened, and the news stories used to bolster that power could easily be from the TV news, today or any other day of the week:

Power is very precarious and those wanting to hold it for any length of time, know that. They're a needy bunch!

Your wife's abusers know full well that if they were exposed widely enough, that their deeds are too toxic to be defended, that however powerful they might be, defending them would threaten to fatally besmirch the image of the whole fiction that is government.

That the only safe path, is then for the abusers to be denounced as "bad apples" and that the current leaders be seen to be cleaning house (however much of a fiction that might be).

This is almost never achieved by going to cops or politicians. They don't want to risk dirt being exposed / boats rocked, and they're too busy with their own dubious self interests.

The authorities will only look when they are forced to by their own positions being threatened. By and large, the old lamestream news outlets are in the pockets of the authorities and vice versa.

The new internet ones are not, hence the clamour for internet regulation (for the children, to fight terror, to keep us safe etc.).

I don't think the current, and very reluctant investigations into high level politician CSA rings in Britain, would have progressed as far as they have without constant agitation on the internet, that just refuses to go away.

Occassionally it can work through the lamestream, Frank Serpico who had tried all inside routes to counter corruption in the NYPD, finally went to the newspapers, and the timing was right, there was a public appetite for the story, and the situation was so bad that the politicians could no longer continue kicking the can down the road.

The Knapp inquiry into that corruption found that a "sizeable majority" of NYPD were engaged in corruption, and following their report (which is damned hard to get a copy of! archive.org blocks download of it from their site) there was a 90% turnover in personnel above the rank of captain in 3 years.

Serpico is (AFAIK) still alive and still active in campaigning.

In terms of your safety if you go the route of exposing the abusers.

Cops and other thugs and bullies, hate cameras. lots of well wishers with cameras around you :photogenic::photogenic::photogenic:. and a way to get those images spread far and wide, if anything does happen.

Have copies of the big stuff, kept in several locations around the world, by people who will release it onto the net and into the lamestream if any of you get hurt (check out how Alan Francovich, who researched and wrote the operation gladio documentaries died, also Robin Cook who resigned as a British minister over the weapons of mass destruction claims, then died soon after - if that happens to one of you, the s needs to really htf for your abusers. you need to be worth more to them alive than hurt, even as you go after them. they need to want you to live to 100!).

There are they guys who found and brought to public and congressional attention the BATFE's program of walking guns into Mexico. At least one of them, has a letter from a well wisher who was, or is a special forces sniper. The letter promises to take 100 establishment heads if anything funny happens to Mike Vanderboegh. I'm not going to put a value judgement on that approach, but, I suspect Vanderboegh is safer for it.

good luck
 
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