WOW. I am infinitely glad that I finally wrote about this issue I've been having. I didn't think I would get nearly this much validation for my distress. I tried a few times a couple of months ago to bring up this issue when both Friend and Fiance were present and displaying this behavior (again, initiated by the Friend, I will call him L. I actually just found out a couple of days ago that my fiance felt "disturbed" at some of the comments he makes and uncomfortable that he is so often asked to respond similarly. I chalk this phenomenon up to being masculine in front of the guys, maybe?).
When I addressed it, all I remember was "You can't be offended! It's a compliment that we feel comfortable enough to talk about these things around you because you can be one of the guys." How the HELL can I be "one of the guys" when I'm engaged to one of these two parties? (My frustration and anger that my fiance won't stand up for me at all in these situations is another sore matter.) Another comment, the comment that ended my protests, was "If you can't take the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen." Which is why I find myself in my room all afternoon and much of the evening. Because I can't take the heat, and "the kitchen" in these instances happens to be most of my apartment. However, secluding myself in my room makes my fiance really angry that I'm being antisocial and ridiculous, and, as he told me yesterday, "Because of this, he really does see you as the b*tch girlfriend sometimes."
SO getting out of the kitchen or speaking up for myself in very civil dialogue doesn't seem to work, and I think I need to adopt some of the advice given.
when he says: "Actress X finally got naked!" I put on an insanely horny face and a breathless voice and then ask him in great detail if he got an erection, if he wanted to have intercourse with the actress, what kind of intercourse, if he masturbated, if it felt good etc. while staring at him. I try to get as graphic and vulgar as possible until I see some kind of fear; then I stop and just smile a condescendingly dirty smile at him.
FreakofNature, I have been contemplating for a couple of weeks how exactly to do what you describe. I want badly to make equally repulsive comments about men. Unfortunately, I found that 1) I am literally incapable of doing this because I see it as disrespect toward my fiance. I talked to him about this, even asked his permission to have those thoughts or make those comments. He basically told me that I was sick, that I've been trained for too long to be some kind of figurine of virtue because of my past of abusive/extremely possessive/jealous boyfriends. I agree with him. I even thought this myself. But it is no less upsetting... I've even tried looking up naughty pictures to see if I'm capable of (what I would call) unfaithful thoughts. Evidently, I'm not. 2) You should really pay attention to this sometime: there are
so few opportunities to even feel or think this way or even make an artificial comment, because the things we watch just don't cater to a woman's sexual sensibility. Besides, the two of them clearly see male actors as personalities and people, so even if I attempt to say something about an actor, they join in the comments but veer them towards what a great
man that person is in personality and skill. But they refer to female characters as "the chick" or whatever and entirely objectify her. WTF?
Then I decided I would just make homoerotic comments and join in his little game of fun. My fiance turned around and looked at me like he didn't know me and didn't want to. I was so scared by his expression that I can no longer even try this.
He tries to leave. You will not let him, being NICE of course! You tell him we will not hurt him, we want to teach him what it is really like to have PTSD. He decides to stay because he is embarassed. We are there ALL NIGHT, each of us telling him our sordid stories in great detail.
ORAK, what you're talking about is basically what I think I need to do. I want to go to his apartment (which is extremely hard because he is always here, not there) and sit him down, tell him that his friendship is valuable and appreciated by me, and if that feeling is mutual, then he really needs to hear what I have to say. I will run him through it if I have to. I've done it out of anger and sadness before; just unloaded on someone unsuspecting (the last time was when my fiance's best friend was talking about how my fiance and him would kill anyone who hurt me, because some relevant sexual abuse stuff was going on at our school. I wrote down a list of about 20 names and handed it to him, explained in summary their crimes and my ages (4-18). He was shocked, and I hope the same for L. I believe that if I can keep my composure it will have its intended effect; he will be horrified and finally silenced, maybe even a little more aware overall. I will certainly pretend that all of you are there with me in support and solidarity. I think that will help me stay calm, actually.
It sounds like you have known him quite awhile but he cannot read your mind and that's a mistake I often make thinking that people should be able to, which is why boundaries are very important. It's more difficult once a behavior has been going on for awhile and I can appreciate your position of hesitation at this point. However, this is causing you extreme stress and it is happening in your own home.
Rain, you're totally right. I've waited such a long time since I addressed this originally, and even before then I was silent to this behavior. It's made it very intimidating to approach with him, especially since he is in general very dismissive and usually fights me when I try to say something is not okay (we basically went through this whole pile of sh*t 3 months ago when I finally got fed up with Jew and kyke comments. I'm not observant, but my family is Jewish, and it was totally disrespectful. Finally we're over this. But the sex stuff... it's so much harder. I can easily stand up for a whole religion, and especially my family, but standing up for
me is proving a struggle. Half of me wants to sweep it under the rug and bite my tongue, half of me wants to die.).
Okay miss Anti may I challenge you to help me? Can you keep me informed how you are going to handle this and what can I do as a male and human do to be more sensative or should I say respectful when it comes to issues I described or is there really no issue at all with the Kardashian empires being.
Dear NJRay,
I accept your challenge. As a writing tutor at a very liberal college, I deal with a lot of Women and Gender Studies students coming in with papers that are
disgustingly sexist toward men. I can't stand it. The only time I ever said that I couldn't work with a student was the first time I was faced with this situation. Like a good little tutor, I thought hard on the issue, had lots of conversations about it, and brought it up during our two Safe(r) Spaces trainings (combating sexual misconduct and other uncomfortable issues that may arise in the one-to-one nature of our jobs). Finally, I found the answer to this problem and now happily tolerate these papers. My solution was to tell these writers to switch the pronouns in their sentences. Recent example of a sentence written by a student (about PTSD no less! The misinformation and misunderstanding of PTSD was honestly more offensive than the sexism was): "Women tend to remember, while men tend to dis-member" (SO sorry if any vets here are very upset about this sentence. I only remember it because I was thinking of all of you brave men and women while reading this paper, how hurt I was by the sentiment). So, we switched the pronouns. The enlightenment that comes from this switch is incredible, a dawning of comprehension that all of my other explanations couldn't get at.
SO, my general rule for
everything I say is, "Would this offend me if it were directed at my gender/body/religious beliefs/heritage/political stance?" Rearrange sentences so that the favor and bias are somehow switched. This, I think, is a good general litmus test.
But specifically on the topic of these sexual comments, I don't know what's right or wrong. I only know how I feel and that what I feel is probably warped. I don't know. I've written countless research papers on the topic of sexism in society and its effects on young girls and women.
My 13-year-old cousin, who has always tried to stand in my footsteps, told me about how everyone at her school is so thin and everyone wears all the new designer clothes, which is why she wears designer clothes (wealthy private school. A year before these comments she was running around in oversized sweaters and torn jeans just like me at her age). She told me that a mother came up to her and said, "Where did you get your clothes? I can never find any for my daughter, because she's fat like you." (!!!) She asked me a question that
broke my heart. She could smell the cigarette smoke in my car when I took her out for ice cream (I do not smoke in front of children below the age of 15 unless I'm just standing outside somewhere or walking down the street, and even then I hide the cigarette and try to move so they don't smell it). She asked, "Do you smoke to get skinnier? All the girls in my grade smoke so they can be thin. Does it work?" I said no, I don't, and no, it doesn't, and that those girls were going to ruin their skin before the age of 25. Hope that dissuades her. She also told me that she practices throwing up sometimes, just to see if she can do it, but her fingers aren't long enough.
AHHH! WHAT IN GOD'S NAME IS BEING ALLOWED TO HAPPEN HERE? (sorry for the caps, Anthony, a little upset right now)
So, NJRay, in answer to your question, I don't know what's right or wrong. But I know that what girls see influences them, sometimes maybe irreparably. I was (accidentally) exposed to a lot of images of sexual sadism, sodomy, and BDSM at a young age (other than what was happening directly to me). I thought sex was disgusting and scary at a young age, but at the same time, everything around me told me
this is your place and purpose. I didn't wear make-up until late in my teens because I questioned a sample of girls who did when I was 12 and found that they did it to attract boys. I didn't want to be that girl. But that doesn't mean I was unaffected. I believed that losing my virginity at 14 with a 17-year-old was somehow what I was meant to be. A friend of mine in the same grade as that horrible BF called him a pedophile. I brought up
his fourteen-year-old girlfriend stint a year before. He said, "Well yeah, but she was hot."
So... what does a 14-year-old girl do with that?
When L makes these comments, there is something in me that whispers:
you should dress like a whore, leave your fiance and just start putting out like the world wants from you. There is nothing virtuous about modesty; you're just wasting the only potential men see in you. Without being a whore, you will just be nothing.
Do the Kardashians effect me? I don't know. I think maybe she does effect my little cousin, because of her age. But the Kardashians aren't the problem. See, at least in this point in my life, I can accept that there are talentless bodies appreciated for pure aesthetics that I don't even prescribe to. I don't believe in those aesthetics. I think very few actresses have true beauty, and when I feel that way, I express it with a sense of awe and appreciation, because generally it's not all about looks. It's about everything.
The
problem starts, in my opinion, when I am in a culture where that sort of thing is bought into and appreciated sincerely, then expressed to me. I mean, this isn't 1984, there is no thought crime. Thoughts and feelings are thoughts and feelings. I have lots of thoughts and feelings over which I have no control. But I keep them in. No one else needs to hear that. The question is, how necessary is it for you to express these things? How necessary is it for L to keep saying every dirty thing that you'd expect from an 11-year-old who has no filter? It just isn't. It adds to nothing. No one needs to know how he feels about these things, and if he really needs to express it, he should really find his own space and an appreciative crowd. I am not that crowd. My apartment isn't that space. (Yay! I'm sounding all convicted now.)
For my thoughts on the Jersey Shore, please reference the depiction of "Snookie" in South Park. Also again, those people aren't from Jersey and need to get off my beach and stop trying to represent us. Grrr.
Okay, this post is really long because of all the replies and everything, but this has been an infinitely helpful dialogue and I SO appreciate the feedback. I finally feel like I'm not out of my mind.
