Cognitive distortion about consent

[Mee]

Legal speak is comfortable for me :)

One of the things I have done a lot of is read legal journals on the area of law i’m Concerned with ( an area hitherto unfamiliar to me) an important thing to consider is that law follows society and runs in arrears of our understanding all the time :(. So .... meeting the minimum standard : Especially when that is so poorly enforced doesn’t actually truly mean meeting a spirit of a thing. :/.

Legally I am most certainly NOT a rapist. That really means very little to me. Nor does the judgement of others. It’s that I was involved in hurting someone in a way fundamentally heinous. In a way I cannot forgive and that I THINK from every logical way I follow it back to seems to deny consent.


Re implied consent; I agree it’s dangerous ground. My husband is unwell today and I just it a blanket over him and kissed his forehead as if he were a small child; It’s technically a consent violation but I do have his ongoing consent explicitly discussed in more than one conversation over this exact issue. ‘I may kiss him when he is asleep’. If I didn’t have his permission I would consider it a violation


In contrast one of my 2017 incidents started when I was asleep with someone I had NO sexual relationship with , at all. This is clearly not implied consent and for me a different situation? No discussion, No agreement. Had I been awake I would not have chosen to have an interaction with this person. Not consent....

So the two are different? Like, I don’t mind if my husband hugs or kisses me before I am awake. I am even getting to love it again .

 

[Sideways]

Legally I am most certainly NOT a rapist.

Okay, so of that's the case, we could potentially link this to the very common, practically a symptom of complex ptsd, core belief: I'm some kind of horrible monster that should be shunned by society.

Does it help to reframe it that way? Because it sounds like you're using the term "rape" to make it worse for yourself (I get that - I do it too, I'm not just bad company, I'm "toxic" or any other horrible name I can think of). This is similar core belief stuff. "I'm inherently bad/evil". In your case? Your brain has hooked itself onto the word "rapist".

Which is pretty effective at communicating to you your level of evilness, yeah? Because "rapist" is about as horrible as it gets.

Only, you know you aren't. It's that cptsd core belief/self concept thing that we all have to find some way of healing.

It’s that I was involved in hurting someone in a way fundamentally heinous.

Your interpretation of the situation? Or is that how the victim has interpreted it.

Because if it's your interpretation, then yeah, this goes back to reconstructing your self concept. This incident isn't actually evidence of your evilness at all.

If it's what the victim has since genuinely spoken to you about from a place of real hurt? Then that would make you human. And like all of us, you've done stuff you're not proud of now, and need to find a way to forgive yourself.

And that's probably just as difficult as reconstructing a healthy self-concept. Different issue, but just as hard.

I've got something very particular I've done that I can't forgive myself for. Not yet anyway. But I have managed to use radical acceptance to stop it working like a daily application of acid on my self esteem. I did it, it's not something I'm okay with, it's not something I'll do again, but it's done, in the past, and that's just how it is.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Freely given, informed, affirmative. That’s consent I think?


If it’s using stuff like emotional abuse, lying , gaslighting it’s not illegal but imo it’s still removing freely given informed consent.

My perspective comes from the point of view of having been raped.

Emotional abuse, lying, and gaslighting are usually behaviors done by someone who cares more about themselves than their partner-in the moment, IMHO. I think it is clear when you ask, are you ready for hanky panky?.....you into it tonight?.....wanta make love?...or whatever intimate phrase you use to see if your partner is emotional involved in the moment is what you should pursue and use as consent. Now if they are ripping your clothes off....that is implied consent. But if you have to coerce your partner....when the body language is clearly that they aren't into it, .and they are giving no body language prior to some kind of physical stimulation that they are (the reproductive parts respond to physical stimulation automatically-not necessarily the person is consenting when that happens), ......then their body language that says, "Not now, no thanks, not into it) saying no should mean no, too. Being a caring partner is part of knowing when to pursue sex or stop.....it has to an activity that everyone wants in the moment. While this may seem old-fashioned thinking, you probably should know your partner, have a good relationship with them, and know their body language pretty well, before graduating to sex.....this is important.

If you feel you may have forced yourself on your partner, it could be illegal..or not......but I don't think that is the issue. Like gaslighting, lying, and emotional abuse, and sexual abuse....they all hurt the other person and victimize them. Consider your question: Was it rape by your own standards....or conventional standards? By changing shoes with your partner, putting the shoe on the other foot, would you have appreciated the same thing happening to you, by your partner? Was there really consent given? Sex is something that can be so beautiful and simple-and cherished, and usually very clear if both partners have a good relationship....when both people are into it. If at any point in the love making game, your partner changes their mind.....it is still a no. And if you felt forceful...examine that-which is bothering you. IMHO-a respectful partner will respect their partner's wishes even when aroused, and go take a cold shower if sex isn't coming together emotionally. I wasn't there....so I'm limited by my own experiences and beliefs on the topic.

 

[Ronin]

I could take other angle at this, too... for one, you're incredibly concerned with choice and freedom and not hurting people. Not very typical rapist behavior. They care they had fun and got off slash whatever rape was a tool to.

Two, if youre a rapist so working to not do it again... congrats;) that learning and actual focus on getting better is both rare and commendable.

Three... even if you crossed consent once, does not mean every of your interactions with the same person is harmful.

Four... I think youve been in an emotional hell over this long enough. Unjustly, but even if it were deserved? Were. Is not now. Sentence served, get the hell out of that dark pit.

 

[Mee]

My perspective comes from the point of view of having been raped.

Emotional abuse, lying, and gaslighting are usually behaviors done by someone who cares more about themselves than their partner-in the moment, IMHO. I think it is clear when you ask, are you ready for hanky panky?.....you into it tonight?.....wanta make love?...or whatever intimate phrase you use to see if your partner is emotional involved in the moment is what you should pursue and use as consent. Now if they are ripping your clothes off....that is implied consent. But if you have to coerce your partner....when the body language is clearly that they aren't into it, .and they are giving no body language prior to some kind of physical stimulation that they are (the reproductive parts respond to physical stimulation automatically-not necessarily the person is consenting when that happens), ......then their body language that says, "Not now, no thanks, not into it) saying no should mean no, too. Being a caring partner is part of knowing when to pursue sex or stop.....it has to an activity that everyone wants in the moment. While this may seem old-fashioned thinking, you probably should know your partner, have a good relationship with them, and know their body language pretty well, before graduating to sex.....this is important.

If you feel you may have forced yourself on your partner, it could be illegal..or not......but I don't think that is the issue. Like gaslighting, lying, and emotional abuse, and sexual abuse....they all hurt the other person and victimize them. Consider your question: Was it rape by your own standards....or conventional standards? ....... I wasn't there....so I'm limited by my own experiences and beliefs on the topic.

Thank you.

My standards not conventional standards.

i have never done the emotional abuse things I described for sex. I have had them done to me.

 

[Ronin]

@Mee , so you violated your own moral code (not objective, just that your own standards for consent are that high... and were not abided by)... and it led to changed self concept, avoidance, way restrictive boundaries and a lot of things... leading to suffering thats too much to take now, am i getting that straight?

Cos if its your own code, you could start by pointing out where you still abided by it, while violating it.

The acts mighta been terrible. Not every moment of them, in all ways, or the reasoning you had.

Also, reasoning then and chance of error is relevant... more so than self judge of now, when you have the luxury of better options.

 

[Mee]

@Mee , so you violated your own moral code (not objective, just that your own standards for consent are that high... and were not abided by)... and it led to changed self concept, avoidance, way restrictive boundaries and a lot of things... leading to suffering thats too much to take now, am i getting that straight?

Cos if its your own code,

T

This made me laugh because that bit is all very accurate and yes, I can see wholly how that is also a feature of ptsd.

The code bit ..... is more complicated. I need to write more about it but, i’m Digesting the rest of what’s been written and finding it very difficult so I want to give that a little while so I can come back less troubled.

I really appreciate everyone bearing with me through my apparent obstreperousness with this; i am trying .

 

[Mee]

Ok .

Code. Law.
Law is transient and insufficient. As I mentioned before ; law runs catch up to issues society faces usually. Just because something isn’t illegal doesn’t make it ok. Tax lawyers and accountants capitalise on this. We know slavery was once legal ( for another pivotal example) . We know law can be inconsistent and is challenged and changed to the point hundreds of changes happen every day through case law.

Some of us impacted as victims of sexual assault feel law is insufficient. I certainly do.

The difficulty in trying to rationalise this ‘healthily’ is my understanding that even convicted rapists rationalise they are not ‘real rapists’. I know that those I have spoken to about my sexual assaults and childhood situations either rationalise it or deny it. If I deny my actions then I am not only someone who impacted someone’s consent but someone who rationalises it- someone the same as them?

FWIW in reference to the victim of my inadvertent actions; she said she did not blame me and that I could not have known and it was ‘his’ fault. She was gracious, forgiving and kind.

 

[Mee]

God that whole " you're in a relationship/married so it's implied consent" thing really pisses me off.

At what point is it no longer implied consent and it's just flat out expected? You're not allowed to say no BECAUSE you're the spouse/ significant other?
Maybe I'm just confused because of my past situation.

I don’t think you are confused anymore than anybody else . Your experience gives you perspective.

At danger of the mad person trying to convince people they are sane - I think the world is confused and rationalises a lot of non consent.


I don’t think consent is implied because I am in a relationship. I think consent is implied about ‘some things’ because it’s stuff we talk about ongoing around it, and have said that it’s ok at times without asking. I.e. my dh and I in the past asked each other to accept implied consent during sleep, unless we said we were totally exhausted at night time or had a massive day the following day. We had ‘discussed terns’ In which initiation of a type that might otherwise be overstepping a line was ok. It absolutely did NOT mean that consent couldn’t be revoked. In fact, perhaps because ‘no’ or ‘i’m Not feeling it’ made the ‘enthusiastic initiation’ ok and actively wanted by me.

The thing I reported as a second degree sexual assault in 2017 when committed by some one I was not in a relationship with I would not have found to be a violation by my husband. :/. I think I would have by my poly partner because it had not been discussed. I always took boundaries really seriously.

Also - I do think in reference to @Ronin’s first post, that a ‘relationship on the side’ can violate consent. that’s what happened to the person I think I was complicit in violating. I was told they were a long term poly couple and evidence did seem to suggest this but I violated my own boundary in accepting what I was told was a term of theirs . Clearly in retrospect this was so naive as to have been utterly dangerous to her consent and boundaries as well as my own.

That he was involved with the other person who raped me ( whether he was in the rape or not ) to me lends weight its in this sphere of violation.

 

[Ronin]

So I'm reading so far you were with your husband and also involved with a woman from a poly couple, that didnt really communicate that clearly, and it wasnt conversations including your husband.

Of that couple, the man assaulted you, something with the woman wasnt clear cut but she believes he messed the communication and it wasn't you being assaultive, but things about her and them two he should have told you prior.

And all of that reflected really badly to your intimate life at home, broke trust you have in yourself as a wife and lover, and undermined intimacy home.

Is seeing it as an assault issue the most productive way of looking at it? Seems to me it walks you in circles. You could as well view it as communication, trust, limits relaying issue... instead of figure you need to label yourself as a criminal.

(My original thoughts went the lair of armed revenge rapes, cough. Nowhere near what you've been describing.)

 

[Mee]

So I'm reading so far you were with your husband and also involved with a woman from a poly couple, that didnt really communicate that clearly, and it wasnt conversations including your husband.

Of that couple, the man assaulted you, something with the woman wasnt clear cut but she believes he messed the communication and it wasn't you being assaultive, but things about her and them two he should have told you prior.

And all of that reflected really badly to your intimate life at home, broke trust you have in yourself as a wife and lover, and undermined intimacy home.

Is seeing it as an assault issue the most productive way of looking at it? Seems to me it walks you in circles. You could as well view it as communication, trust, limits relaying issue... instead of figure you need to label yourself as a criminal.

(My original thoughts went the lair of armed revenge rapes, cough. Nowhere near what you've been describing.)

No. That’s not what happened, though it would have been far simpler and easier to comprehend. I don’t feel able to be clearer I think ?. I feel too unsafe to spell out what happened in this instance clearly.

My transgression would be simplest to say ‘an affair’. The woman was the victim of an affair that I didn’t know I was in.

I’m of the opinion affairs violate consent. But open marriages don’t. It’s the ‘consent’ aspect; If you are freely giving informed consent in a relationship you know it’s not exclusive. If you don’t know the marriage you think is monogamous the nature of it is impacted significantly to void the (implied) consent and the informed part of the consent is not there.

I just cannot see the take held on it in most places in making cheating ok is right; it’s a consent violation.

 

[Ronin]

A-ha. So you werent told crucial things that, if you knew them, you wouldnt have acted at all, and because there were other parties, you blame yourself for the whole thing.

That doesn't make it on you, not having the right picture. Nor does it make you dirty. Just taken through the mud. And it hurts. And it sticked to you. And it made you question every fair skies weather you ever had. Thats not forever... nor your faulty nature. Just one mistake you were led to make that dragged on.