News Conversion therapist comes out.

[somerandomguy]

I literally cannot make this any simpler: Human rights should not be voted on or legislated. They are inalienable for all human beings. And conversion therapy perverts human rights. Period.

 

[EveHarrington]

I think it’s interesting how I’m thought of as “naive” for simply having a different point of view. I haven’t shared my background, my sexual orientation, or anything that would, I don’t know, validate my opinion....?

But yes, I keep my personal experiences quiet in real life because I know my opinions would be labeled as hateful, as has happened here, when they are not. Yes, I have done my homework. I’ve seen the research. But most of all, I have my own personal experiences to guide me.

I do know this....if I didn’t see the things the way that I do, I’d be the one going around hating myself. It took me many years to accept myself and who I am. (And no I am not in denial.)

This is MY truth. I’m not trying to deny anyone else their truth. To each their own. Live and let live.

 

[Friday]

I literally cannot make this any simpler: Human rights should not be voted on or legislated. They are inalienable for all human beings.

I couldn’t disagree more strongly, but I would suggest that’s a topic for a different thread.

 

[Justmehere]

It's not BS to say straight people should listen to Gay people on this...

Reminds me of a saying in the disability community.... "nothing about me, without me." That being said, LGBTQ voices should be heard, and straight people having opinions doesn't take that away.

For me, as a person with a disability, I rather know the opinions of those without disabilities then have them silenced. Especially the terrible opinions. Then I know where people stand.

I literally cannot make this any simpler: Human rights should not be voted on or legislated.

I'm surprised you think they should get rid of making any laws about human rights, but I am aware of (and disagree with) a trend towards "Queer anarchy." But that's probably another topic for another thread....

 

[joeylittle]

How do you feel about someone in authority who sexually molested kids (EDIT: teens. Maybe not kids) back in the 1960s or 1970s, when it was seen as basically a non-harmful act?

False equivalency, I think.

Discussions around important topics almost never benefit from whattaboutism. A certain amount of it will work, within reason. But it’s tricky.

I think it’s a good thing the guy went public. For those who still advocate for conversion therapy (why? why?), or worse still, practice conversion therapy - maybe it’ll ring some bell for them, start some questions that lead to them changing their current stance. And for those who were his clients, maybe there’s some kind of relief in him admitting he was wrong.

I can also imagine it would lead to a lot of pain and anger, for those former clients. I really hope they are in a place where they have support.

 

[shimmerz]

Human rights should not be voted on or legislated.

I think this is not really a human right that you are speaking about here. It is a societal right which is based on a construct that society is still adjusting to. There are a million of those flying around - not just the LGBTQ one. Right?

I think in some ways you are right. Disabled people (for instance) have a much better insight as to the issues surrounding how certain societal values and biases and laws can affect their ability to live as a human being with full rights to basic freedoms within that society.

Societal constructs may be voted on (which generally means the majority rules). And that absolutely does threaten the rights within society for the minority.

But then again, I and just about everyone can look back and see where they were in the minority and lost a freedom(s) that they deserved. I slept in my car for years because the majority of people doesn't understand how DV affects the victims and in turn the victim is punished. Society is rife with these issues. That's why special interest groups fight for years to bring attention to their requested adjustment to societal perceptions so they have the freedoms they see the majority enjoying.

Wasn't that long ago that 'professional' operated on infants and babies without anesthetic because they felt we didn't have a mature enough CNS to feel the pain. Let's face it. Each generation thinks that they are cutting.leading edge. We didn't know shit back then and we don't know shit now. Nor will we know much in another 100 years when they laugh at us for our 'backwardness'. We should all be doing the right thing with tolerance to allow people basic rights. And that includes the right to go to conversion therapy or not. We are all sovereign beings. We have the tools to research. For ourselves.

Why are we arguing about why people should be offended? Don't we have better stuff to do? Like shatter our inner critics or something?

 

[anthony]

But, sure... Keep enjoying your "informed" conversation about conversion therapy.... Why should what LGBT people think matter more than what straight people think?

I have banned you from this thread. Keep it up and see what happens next from me. You are being discriminatory, reverse discrimination, as though its acceptable. Further discriminating against anyone who you feel has persecuted you, is just wrong. It will not be tolerated here. Hate is hate, however you choose to wrap it and convince yourself.

My advice is to not test my boundaries on this behaviour. You get banned, life goes on here for everyone else. Please stop the hate against others.

 

[Anarchy]

The ad hominum fallacy.

Fails to address the actual argument being made

and instead, goes for the person who is making the argument.

It takes the form:
Argument is wrong because of the person who is making it.

 

[Anarchy]

The ad hominum fallacy.

Fails to address the actual argument being made

and instead, goes for the person who is making the argument.

It takes the form:
Argument is wrong because of the person who is making it.

I'd better add that referring to the argument against Eve, who imo made well reasoned and logical points.

 

[Muttly]

I am a member of the lgbtq community. I don't agree with many of the things @EveHarrington said. I also think she has every right to post here.

I read the article when it first came out. I understand the anger of some of the posters here. I feel it too. I believe he may have thought he was doing the right thing at the time. Just like some Nazi members who were espousing Hitlers views and trying to convince others how his practices were great, may have believed they were doing the right thing. People can believe they are doing something right, or at least convince themselves they are, for all sorts of reasons. Here is what bothers me the most. Here is the point where I find my anger and lack of forgiveness. He states he won't apologize or renounce his work. No, that's not ok. If you harm people you apologize. You own up. You say something is wrong. Research shows that suicide rate after conversion therapy goes up. For teens it it's 5 times as high (source)

Based on that article, we can't argue that the individual was only treating adults. It doesn't say that. And it troubles me that we are basing arguments on that, to make it seem ok, when we don't even know if that's a reality. And saying adults who "choose" to go to conversion therapy are making an informed choice so it's all upfront doesn't wash. Not when clients are getting messages constantly from society and also probably family and religion that they are wrong for being who they are. Not when adults may be told they can't be a member of their community (church, etc) unless they go to this therapy. And when the therapist is practicing methods akin to brain washing and that have been discredited and are considered harmful it *is* akin to going to a therapist who use lies, deceit and malpractice.

 

[Nessa7]

I think that one advantage of his statement is that it would be non-threatening to people that are in the same position that he was in. Having been in the position to be forced to attend pitches for young adults to sign up for conversion therapy on a pretty regular basis for a few years, it was the "success stories" that always seemed to be the most insidious part of it. They would have men that were slightly older than the audience meet with people that expressed even the smallest amount of interest. They would usually be attractive and bring along their wife and probably a baby that all seemed happy enough. It would send the message that the whole thing (particularly the forced to attend part) wasn't creepy or socially unacceptable at all. Being told that someone like them can come out and not be miserable or have their life completely ruined might make a big difference in their lives and keep more people from being recruited.

 

[EveHarrington]

Is the argument being made that sexuality not only is not but can not ever be fluid?

What about those who are in the middle of the spectrum (somewhere) and really do prefer to be with someone of the opposite sex...? For all intents and purposes, someone like this would be considered bisexual, but now we’re cutting him/her off from talking (YES, TALKING) to a therapist so that he/she can live the life that he/she desires with the opposite sex. This, after all, does fall under the legal umbrella definition of “conversion therapy” Is that fair? We can only have therapists who steer people in the direction of coming out and embracing homosexuality? When they may indeed just be confused?

Yes, these laws ARE cutting off help for people who just want talk therapy, and aren’t dealing with practitioners who do questionable and/or harmful practices.

Have any of you read up on the conservative NYC orthodox Jewish rabbi who offers talk therapy and only talk therapy to his constituents (who seek him out, I might add, not the other way around) who are struggling with homosexual thoughts and are seeking his counsel so that they can live the life they desire? This rabbi isn’t doing anything wrong (IMHO). He’s not making people watch porn, using electroshock therapy, etc. He is simply talking to his clients. And now it’s illegal for him to do so. But on the flip side, if he was telling his clients to come out and accept that he/she is gay, that would be the right thing? This seems messed up to me. How can we possibly get into anyone’s head and know what is right for them? Do you really think the government is going to get this right? No, not by a long shot. The government needs to stay away from governing therapy under the “all conversion therapy” is bad umbrella where it’s all painted with a wide brush. Why is the government not just cracking down on the individual elements that make this therapy bad?

I never argued for the use of harmful therapeutic methods but I am guessing that more than one person assumed that I was. In fact, I am against harmful and barbaric methods.

And yes, I do get it. Conversion therapy is rooted in the idea that homosexuality is wrong. But don’t cut off help for everyone when it’s not all fire and brimstone.

But as things stand legally, any therapy, including just talk therapy, that includes helping someone embrace their straight side, is being lumped into “conversion therapy” and being branded as 100% wrong. (Again, read up on what’s going on in NYC.)

And yes, much of this problem lies with lawmakers who don’t understand the laws they are making. All talk about sexuality and helping someone live the life they desire is wrong?

And what about people who are sexually confused (in orientation) because they were molested as a child? (It’s not uncommon for someone to embrace a certain orientation to deal with the abuse.) Now therapists must steer them in a particular direction? A therapist couldn’t help someone embrace their heterosexuality even though that’s what the client wants? (Even if that’s what the client truly IS?) “Sorry, I can’t help you with embracing heterosexuality because you already have homosexual thoughts, and if I were to encourage you in any way/shape/form to do so, I could lose my license.” You think this is far off? It’s not. Its happening right now.