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Dark Night Of The Soul?

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The way you describe your Dark Night* kind of fits the spot I've been in forever (at least I can't think of a time when I wasn't in some flavour of this mindset). I feel despair and disgust when I think about what I am and how I came to be, psychologically speaking. I wish I could just move on. Just shed all the shit like a dead skin and be done with it.
But how could I? The past is past, alright, but it did shape me. Ego and consciousness are emergent and contingent, I know that, but the brain that produces them has developed under certain circumstances, and I can't will away the physical consequences of my upbringing. The brain doesn't have unlimited plasticity and there are structural dimensions that are beyond the scope.
I don't know if I believe in a 'true self'. It sounds like an oxymoron to me. 'True' implies stability and non-contingency, essence, singularity. But 'self' is emergent, contingent, dependent on the brain and situational factors. Even if you take 'self' to mean your vantage point and feeling of continuity there's no 'true' there.
I know a feeling of 'happy self' and wise thoughts, but they are no more true than any other self, feeling or thought.

Maybe I just don't get what you mean?

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* I did some research about this for uni and I only knew it as a problem of religious/'spiritual' people; I can see, though, how it could afflict everybody else, too.
 
I totally understand what you're talking about. I kinda went through the same thing at the beginning of high school and got it all figured out and now... I know I'm not that person, but I'm not sure who I am. Right now I'm exploring the boundaries of my PTSD - how much of the perceived me is really the disorder. Once I can figure out where the PTSD stops, I can start to see where I begin. That might not make any sense to anyone but me, but there you have it.
Oh YES! Very insightful Reclusive!! As a matter of fact, that was exactly what I was trying to describe! See, having ptsd for such a long time, day in and day out, you loose yourself in it, and never really know how much of yourself is yours, and what is attributive to the disorder! I was trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to say, but you've beaten me to the punch! So, how goes it for you Reclusive in that respect? I mean finding the person, and discriminating it from the disorder? Any tips? I figure if I just do what I'm doing, (doing more things I like, understanding my emotions which is HUGE! Basically anything that will let the "personal" aspect of my personality come out) then i'll hit the outline of my personality, and get right to the center of me.
 
Ok, freak this is looooooong; I hope it helps, (it's my P.O.V. and I hope it helps because I'm going through this too) otherwise we can keep talking through this!! :)

First off, the dark night of the soul is for EVERYONE FreakofNature....no human being is without doubt, therefore, the ability to transcend that doubt is there....even spiritual men/women of great faith were introduced to a struggle for their soul, and felt forsaken by "God" and felt faithless, and broken because of it, and that is probably the worst part of this experience, but EVERYONE can achieve this higher state of mind. They aren't imbued in any light that we all cannot experience it; I'm not a frequent worshiper of the bible or God, and I'm not spirtual master; I'm a 22 year-old college student, who suffered, and had looked for a way to enter within to find the true self....spiritual practioners, and worshipers are thought to be the only ones who feel this because they often are the only ones who seek to be "one" with all.....they are ones who practice this meditation often to reach a state of mind that is required to be "pure" and "focused" on getting above the pettiness of the ego.....this is a search for the GENUINE and REAL self.

The past is past, alright, but it did shape me.

True FreakofNature. We were damaged, and that's life...it happens....but you have to understand that it was the ego that became damaged, and NOT the true self....the true self encompasses more of reality, than just the little personal hurts that the ego is known to collect/accumulate throughout life....the true self is UNDERNEATH the pain, and hold your ego has over you....you are realizing the futility of your ego, and it's threatened I think....I learned that there is indeed a "true self" underneath it....the ego is just a psychological construct that allows us to observe reality in the body that we have....it is our P.O.V. literally, but that doesn't mean it's the "right" P.O.V. to establish, and build a life on because it breaks down....which mean, it's redundant, but fears discovering it's redundancy because it has learned/believes its the preeminent force of reality....."I must be all there is to this person because, how else could they see/observe life without me?" is how the ego sees things....but the ego seeks ways counteract these crises that arise that threatens it (defense mechanisms) that keeps the locus of control on the ego, ensuring it is the preeminent force in the persons mind, but there is something more to this situation....it just seems at this time "how can there be ANYTHING larger than my own P.O.V.?" well there is!! It's the "true self".

Ego and consciousness are emergent and contingent
The ego is indeed contingent on consciousness, but the reverse is false; the ego is a construct of the amalgam of experiences that we gain from our earliest times of conscious recollection; that's what the ego is, a framework of ideas, beliefs, thoughts, and feelings, and experiences that becomes cohesive and welds together, to form the so-called, "personality" and is designed to remain "in tact" in most situations....but the ego, can be broken, and undergo the process of "disintegration" that can be most profoundly positive for the possessor of the ego in question....think about it, breaking a habit can be done, and this is apart of the ego; ego's process of uncoupling the value behind the behavior that keeps it intact, can be magnified on a GLOBAL level (which now considers the WHOLE psychological infrastructure of the ego) and is repeated until the "Dark Night" is introduced....this made me "think/feel" suicidal....my ego, was breaking because it was time to undo itself.....it frightened me, (and still kinda does) frighten me to think that I'll be without that old P.O.V. but I'd GLADLY give it up, if it meant becoming the guy I both WANT AND NEED to be.

Even if you take 'self' to mean your vantage point and feeling of continuity there's no 'true' there.
I know a feeling of 'happy self' and wise thoughts, but they are no more true than any other self, feeling or thought.

There is a true self, but it's beyond the EGO, it's beyond the vantage point!! You see this is a time that silences the ego, from eclipsing the true self The ego is the self that most people identify with, and is capable of a wide range of emotional states, but is fundamentally false, because it's a psychological construct that deals with reality principally.....the internal landscape of the ego comes to a point where it's shading out the true self from emerging. The ego can be happy as well, and hell it LIVES to satisfy YOU so that it can keep it's sense/feeling of omnipotence, and omnipresence in your life; the ego will experience joy and happiness for a time, because data comes in at a rapid pace and changes our emotional landscape from time to time, but these states are ALWAYS transitional, and NEVER last forever once we feel them, they go around and around shifting from mind state, to mind state....
 
Oh YES! Very insightful Reclusive!! As a matter of fact, that was exactly what I was trying to describe! See, having ptsd for such a long time, day in and day out, you loose yourself in it, and never really know how much of yourself is yours, and what is attributive to the disorder! I was trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to say, but you've beaten me to the punch! So, how goes it for you Reclusive in that respect? I mean finding the person, and discriminating it from the disorder? Any tips? I figure if I just do what I'm doing, (doing more things I like, understanding my emotions which is HUGE! Basically anything that will let the "personal" aspect of my personality come out) then i'll hit the outline of my personality, and get right to the center of me.

Whew! I'm glad I made sense at least. LOL For instance, my car isn't running and I bought a part for the mechanic to install in my car and had to drop it off today. The way I approached and conversed with the manager was very assertive and direct - that was me. The internal panic and urge to flee I felt inside was my PTSD. When I got back to the car I'm borrowing, the shaking, etc. was the PTSD.

Another example. I don't like being around crowds. That's me. I've never liked crowds, never, never. That's me. But that's dislike - like tasting something yucky. The fear and panic I feel at the thought of crowds is the PTSD.

It's funny that you mention spiritual practitioners experiencing this a lot. The first time I did I was studying and researching and trying to discover who I was as a spiritual person and would spend hours in meditation. Now that I'm experiencing it again, I'm also endeavoring to re-discover my spiritual self. I feel like if I can find and isolate that self, I can build outward from there. I don't know if that's right or wrong or even makes sense, but there you have it.
 
Oh! I just wanted to add - that I'm doing like you are and focusing on doing things I enjoy. I like to take photographs, so I've been studying and working with my camera more. It blows my mind, but the world becomes a different place when I look through my camera. I THINK that's the real world and I'm seeing it through my REAL eyes when that happens. I can't very well wander about with a camera stuck to my face, so I need to learn how to make the transition.
 
Ok, freak this is looooooong; I hope it helps, (it's my P.O.V. and I hope it helps because I'm going through this too) otherwise we can keep talking through this!! :)
Thank you. I see now that you don't use the term 'ego' as defined by Buddhism or in the sense of any other Philosophy that I'm familiar with.

As I now understand you, 'ego' to you means roughly that which we adress when we say 'I' plus everything 'I' holds as current experience (conscious thoughts, sensations, emotions etc.) and accessible data (beliefs, memories etc.)? Is that understanding correct?

I still have no idea what you mean by 'true self', though, and how exactly it is distinct from the 'ego'. You hint at it but never give a full definition. My main question is: What's the source of the 'true self'?

even spiritual men/women of great faith were introduced to a struggle for their soul, and felt forsaken by "God" and felt faithless, and broken because of it
Yeah, and that's why I thought people without religious or 'spiritual' dependency wouldn't suffer from The Dark Night. When you're self-reliant, you don't have expectations that the universe could fail to meet.

But as you define The Dark Night, it encompasses multiple variants of existential crises.
 
Okay, personal button. Just because I have a religion doesn't make me dependent. I'm just as self-reliant as the next person.
 
@Recluse: Then you are an exception and I exclude you from my statement. I meant the religious/'spiritual' people who in various discourses explicitly stated that they depend on their respective supernatural to serve as an answer to a vast amount of fundamental questions.
 
I did read St John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul when I was going to a Catholic church. It was good to read but after the PTSD I cannot read it. Religious things bother me tremendously now, I am sad to say because I took it quite seriously.
 
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