Difference Between Evil And Messed Up

[Chava]

I believe evil, chaos, etc all come from the same source

I'm not questioning your viewpoint (since I have almost no opinion on "evil" myself) but for me chaos is not all bad. Chaos is almost always present at the beginning of the creative process and before important transformation. Had my drinking not become chaos I'd still probably be a loser, selfish alcoholic. But the chaos was too severe. Major transformation. Order doesn't happen automatically, but is often birthed from chaos. So I'm viewing chaos in a global sense. Order itself is not all good either. Fundamental religions? Mutant "order". Anyway, just depends on how you define chaos. I personally have very little issue with chaos. If chaos or dis-order that is hurting others? Yes, then we create order or root out the cause of damage/destruction.

@shimmerz , how do I get sucked into posts I can not even answer? You ask fun questions. Okay fun isn't the right word. I mean, philosophical (and that's super f*cking fun). :)

 

[Justmehere]

I volunteer with traumatized kids, and I have sometimes met the offenders and the idea of evil is a complex one for me.

I think one way to look at it is to compare things with event that are accidents or something harmful that is done by someone we also see as innocent.

I'm not sure how to word this well, so if this is just a confusing mess of words, please ignore.

I hate to use terrorism or the US as an example, but it is an easy example. Terrorists have a huge impact on people. They physically harm a relatively low number of people living in the US, but Americans are fairly impacted by them pyschologically. Things like car crashes impact way more Americans, but not as many fear driving as they do terrorism.

I think the difference is that car accidents are traumatic and terrible, but usually not intentional. (I have been traumatized by car accidents so I'm not meaning to minimizing that kind of traumatic intent.) Terrorist threats are done with what the threatened party often sees as evil intent, and the threatening terrorist does seek to cause psychological fear.

A much less extreme example: if someone bumps be in the grocery store by accident, its not a big deal. I would be over it quicker than it happened. But if someone threatened to bump me in the grocery store, or they express or act with what I know to be intent to bump me, I would be a little afraid of them.

There is also the peri-traumatic environment in which the event occurs. The trauma therapist I had in intenstive treatment said that one of the biggest predictors as to the effect of a traumatic event will have on a person is the environment in which the traumatic event occurs. If it is a validating supportive environment, people tend to get better faster. If it is an invalidating environment, people tend to become more symptomatic and those symptoms last longer.

Applying that to the grocery store example. If the person bumps me and bruises me, I say ouch, and the person says sorry, and acts with validation, apology, and compassion, I'm likely to fair better. I might even develop a good relationship with the person.

If I say ouch, and the response is denial, blaming me, or telling me I wasn't bumped at all, the impact is different. The relationship with me and the person is harmed more.

Behavioral "accidents" happen and can affect us, even traumatize us. Sometimes they can even feel like they were intentional, and the thought that the accident was on purpose can affect us more.

Why? Because I think many people fear an intent to harm. Perception (accurate or inaccurate) of a capacity for that, or a capacity for evil affects our response.

Most people believe children are not evil.

Children are usually seen as innocent. If a little kid came and stompped on my foot in a temper tantrum and call me a poopy-head I'm not really traumatized by it. My foot might hurt, but I see the child as an innocent kid, unable to always control or regulate behavior and etc. I wouldn't fear the child or have a worse relationship with the child.

If an adult came up and stepped on my foot and called me a sh*t-head, it would freak me out a little and it would for sure affect the relationship with me and them. I see the adult as making a deliberate choice to harm me, and I think maybe we see adults as having the capacity to cause harm with intent in a different way, because most people do not assume all adults are innocent like children, and they have more power.

Most people do not equate terrorists with innocent either. But someone who does something that we also see as innocent, it can have a different psychological impact.

I have worked with two kids who have perped on other kids... Not just temper tantrums, but have acted in manner that was criminal and traumatizing.

I have no answers. Just random-ish thoughts and I struggle with this myself in so many ways. I have a hard time grasping that my abusive father intended harm. I know he harmed me. I have a really hard time accepting that he meant it. It feels like that would change it... but at the end of the day, intentional or evil or not, it still harmed and traumatized me very deeply and destroyed our father daughter relationship.

 

[blackemerald1]

Well my view based on having looked people right in their eyes & the things they have told me about their heinous behavior is this.
Messed Up: ok, well they tend to make excuses that don't add up to the act; get defensive because they know they didn't mean for what they did do to turn of out the way it did; at some time in the future they show some semblance of regret, despair; remorse; display emotions that show some self reflection on their actions & the subsequent consequences; not just they got caught/found out & dislike what the consequences might be. A pure & utter mistake whether they have the insight to acknowledge this or not; a desire to make amends even if it is impossible; making promises they know are beyond them to appease the suffering of another; white lies for the sake of further explanation; acting/speaking/writing on too little information; knee jerk or impulsive responses in word or deed; not remaining objective when they know they should; immature behaviour not relative to their true age (not related to mental/physical disability); displaying knowledge or behaviors on subjects that without explanation appear or become a pattern, (again inappropriate to true age)

I could go on till your eyes glazed over on messed up. Hope I haven't tuned you out!

Evil: So for this the words intention, unlawful & inhumane are pivitol.
Gloating over suffering of any description & a clear indication to repeatedly do the act again; not capable of mercy in whatever lawful form it might be needed; behaving insidiously particularly towards vulnerability; having the means & propensity to harm & hide without sanction by law or humane reason. Lack of remorse ever after causing harm; delight from causing chaos, disharmony, terror or shock in word or deed. Justifying a deed when knowing it was unjust. Subjecting torture on any species; gathering or compelling another to do acts of malice, mischief on false information.

Just a reminder all these descriptions of evil I have suggested are intentional acts, not accidents. Nor, am I describing the subject to any physical, psychiatric etc disease of the brain.
Also, my interpretation of Evil is that it is not static.

I suggest that though it's easy to get all caught up in the Religious side of what Evil is, God vs Devil etc., that there is Evil. That it can shift in all it's manifestations, do we teach our children to talk or go with strangers? Do we have the strange instinct that our dogs do not like a person & yet we cannot understand why?
I leave you with this quote, "All that is required for evil to thrive is that good men do nothing."
I should know the Author of this, but I am using a phone, it can do searches but can I? So, if some one can help with this famous quote jump in.

 

[shimmerz]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Thank you blackemerald..... and all of you. Anything else would be appreciated as well. This concept is spinning around in my head today it seems.... I appreciate all of your thoughtful postings.

Poor @Chava. Sorry to suck you in. :confused::hug:

 

[shimmerz]

@Rumors , your definition makes me shudder. It also makes me see I am looking black/white. There are obviously more roads on the path than good/messed up/evil. Thank you.

Scout, yes I see the book on YouTube (audio book format). Thank you. More after I get my head together on this one.

 

[shimmerz]

OTSD. Ongoing. Not POST.

Ongoing Traumatic Stress Disorder. Interesting. Seems like a good way to describe people with PTSD who are sitting in a bog full of life adjustments doesn't it?

 

[Deleted member 28740]

@blackemerald1

My abuser is one or both. Perfect descriptions.

For the evil, necessary to be around them for the gloating, thankfully not around for some time. Got their mask back on.

Lack of mercy certainly. Resources for impunity. Takes time for contact again then pleads apologies and making amends. Not ever fulfilled. Trying to save my home I fell for that. And that it would heal, undo. Worse.

This one,

gathering or compelling another to do acts of malice, mischief on false information.

This was the latest.

Verdict? Important? What difference does it make WHY they behave as they do? One of choice, did they have one? What difference does that make ultimately to me? Would it change who I am now and how I try to heal, or react to life? DNK.

 

[shimmerz]

Takes time for contact again then pleads apologies and making amends. Not ever fulfilled. Trying to save my home I fell for that.

Would this have happened if you had known what evil was? ^^^^ IDNK either, just asking. Trying to educate myself as I walk into a new social situation.

 

[GG2489]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what defines evil intentions in a person as opposed to just 'messed up...

Hi.
I don't believe in evil. I believe that people loose their way or are damaged in one way or another.

 

[Rumors]

Hi.
I don't believe in evil. I believe that people loose their way or are damaged in one way or another....

You think that someone who beats up a 4 yr old kid to death with their bare hands bc they were crying too loud isn't evil? To me, it's also the people who set fire to a dog or cat for amusement that exhibit the most evil. It is the willful action taken against helpless creatures that makes someone evil. I don't consider those people lost.....

 

[GG2489]

You think that someone who beats up a 4 yr old kid to death with their bare hands bc they were crying too...

I wonder sometimes when someone does something bad why they acted that way? I hear what you are saying and the things you mentioned can seem evil. I myself love children and animals.. I sometimes love animals more then people..
Over many years I have asked myself can someone be truly evil?
I came to this conclusion.. A psychopath is mentally ill so are their actions evil or because they are ill? If their actions are evil due to being ill can you truly blame them?
Some people carry hatred in their hearts.. Again where did this hatred come from? I believe from bad things that have happened to them.. Does this make them evil?
I myself have had aggressive outbursts during my youth, especially before I knew I was ill. The aggression I showed would to some be conceived as evil. I regret my actions and every day put into place things to prevent me loosing my temper.. I work for a few charities and have done befriending before.. Am I a wolf in sheeps clothing as I was an aggressive person in the past.
It's just my opinion but I believe we are all born innocent something goes terribly wrong along the way to adulthood.
A feral child might attack you but does that make them evil.,
I suppose I'm trying to say I believe if someone is deemed "evil" something turned them that way..
There are evil actions for sure.. But evil people I don't see that..
:(

 

[shimmerz]

And they try to make us believe that their victims are evil. And many times they succeed. And that is a tragedy.

having looked people right in their eyes

I was taught, because of religion, that I should have turned the other cheek. Which I did for most of my life. With absolutely disastrous results. Never again. But I suspect, just like everything else that I miss along the way, that there is a spectrum out there. A wide ranging one. And evil rarely shows itself until they have you. Then it is too late.

I wish I had been properly educated. I wish someone had taken the time to teach me how to see that evil deeds come from a special type. Instead i was told that we are all gods children and worthy of forgiveness.

I believe that people loose their way or are damaged in one way or another.

This is what I believed most of my life. I just didn't piece together that evil must have murdered my best friend in grade 5. We were asked to 'pray for him'. Ugly. Just ugly. I am trying to remove this 'program' from my mind.

beats up a 4 yr old kid to death with their bare hands bc they were crying too loud isn't evil?

And I don't think it is just about murder. I am just not sure where the line gets crossed. Sorry, probably still confusing. I am still a bit messed up with this.

So for this the words intention, unlawful & inhumane are pivitol.

Yes. Stealing ones humanity, or attempting to do so in order to cover up ones own deficits perhaps? Crimes against humanity, whether that be individual or a group sense of humanity. Really well put blackemerald.

Still thinking this one through. It may take a while.