Dissociation Explained

[anthony]

Have a read of the intro I have posted so far in the posttraumatic memory wiki page, under construction obviously... there are also some good sources sighted thus far... talks about memory, fragmentation, dissociative memory, etc. Still a lot more I have to include in that one yet... getting to it slowly this week.

Healing trauma has never been about "having" to remember every little piece, but more you begin with what you know, what is within your brain. That is what you resolve... holes comes out if they are there, gaps appear also if they are there. Can something you don't remember actually be impacting your brain negatively? Experts seem to think not, and experience has dictated this over past decades, ie. trying to recover suppressed memories or amnesic memory, has often only resulted in cataclysmic failure and patient meltdown. The subconscious and concious brain are always connected and talking... a reaction to something not remembered, could not promote a symptom. The brain reacts to what it remembers, not what it does not.

It is like those with trauma who got knocked out. The event itself didn't happen to their brain, because it wasn't being sensed, however; they could absolutely get PTSD based on knowing they got knocked out, then the after affect, being they know something bad happened to them during the event. That is what can cause symptoms, but the event itself, the brain cannot react to what it does not actually record.

This is where is also gets blurry.... because your brain may turn sight and sound off, but still register touch, as an example. Even though unconscious, suddenly you begin having sensations you are being touched (flashback), yet cannot mentally connect an event to it.

Exposure therapy has never been about exposing yourself to the past, it is only a behavioural therapy to remove unrealistic fear. It does it very very well too... actually, Prolonged Exposure (PE) is still rated the highest results obtaining therapy for PTSD to date... not even the cognitive processing of CBT comes close to the gained effects achieved through PE. Anyone trying to apply PE to the past, has it all wrong. PE is about what you fear now, what is stopping you from doing x, y & z, and is unrealistic. If you lived next to a crack house and guns where going off on occasion and you feared for your safety, that would not be unrealistic, and is quite realistic, so no therapy could change your thinking... because your thinking is already realistic and your environment is dangerous.

 

[anthony]

Expanding that little further, with information not yet posted on the wiki page. Dissociative and amnesic memory look to be more fantasy vs reality. They have been theories, yet empirical evidence backed with neuroscience is telling a different story nowadays, and more along the lines that our memory simply never viewed these black holes of information, so there is nothing to be processed, and by trying to reconnect them, leads into the unwritten component of the above reference, with traumatic amnesia and false memories.

Dissociation is one thing, but dissociative memory, a whole different ball park so neuroscience is now telling, which shows parts of the brain becoming active that create lies when trying to recollect missing memory, because we feel a need to piece snippets together. This changes how therapy with PTSD, let alone the nature of what PTSD is, going forward. Lots of good things coming from neuroscience today... with accuracy (theory & visualization) vs. theory alone.

 

[intothelight]

Can something you don't remember actually be impacting your brain negatively? .

I agree 100% the memories are there since they do cause negative effects, but it seems they are "misfiled" for a lack of a better term.

The subconscious and conscious brain are always connected and talking... a reaction to something not remembered, could not promote a symptom. The brain reacts to what it remembers, not what it does not.

This is where is also gets blurry.... because your brain may turn sight and sound off, but still register touch, as an example. Even though unconscious, suddenly you begin having sensations you are being touched (flashback), yet cannot mentally connect an event to it.

Interesting point as to "what" is actually remembered and "how" it is remembered. Research in this area is often contradictory. The feeling of a "disconnect" is the best term to describe it.

Experts seem to think not, and experience has dictated this over past decades, ie. trying to recover suppressed memories or amnesic memory, has often only resulted in cataclysmic failure and patient meltdown. The subconscious and conscious brain are always connected and talking... a reaction to something not remembered, could not promote a symptom. The brain reacts to what it remembers, not what it does not.

This is where I butt heads with my T. Suppression still means the memories are there, because there is a reaction. The whole "amnesia" piece is confusing and the "crawl out" clause seems to be DID; which I personally do not buy into. (Please note anyone reading this that is my personal opinion.) But from a therapeutic standpoint, it is a catch 22 for the patient. Trauma therapy is the most effective, and is based on processing the trauma. But then, we don't want to help you "remember" because it is too dangerous?

Maybe understanding the disassociation is the key to understanding the disconnect? Or maybe just asking those who remember to tell you is the best approach?

Yes, the explanation of exposure therapy was very helpful. The trick is not to associate when engaging in it.

 

[anthony]

I have split the exposure therapy discussion off to: [DLMURL]http://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/exposure-therapy.16279/[/DLMURL]

The thing with dissociation and memories, is that you can only infer this to the actual event itself. Our senses actually don't record everything like we thought, all the time, and in fact they only record the emotionally significant / what we want to remember for the most part. So during a traumatic event, it would not be uncommon that during dissociation, you either stop encoding into memory specifics that occur, or your senses are only encoding one or several of them to memory.

This is the most current research data, which is showing far more empirical substance over the past years than previous theories without the input from neuroimaging. Neuroimaging is allowing us to learn far more about these topics than ever before, as the brain can literally be watched as processing occurs when exposed to traumatic stimuli. Prior to this, everything was just theory, with nothing else. Best guess... now imaging is showing vastly different results based across a cross section of applications, all showing the same end results.

 

[jimmy-joe]

I may be in the wrong area for this, but could you dissociate partway? Like my brother says he watches himself talk when he's talking to more than a couple people, but I've never been able to pull that far away, i usually... I don't know how to describe this because my memory comes and goes in chunks, but it's like, I think my body how to act, then I keep watch for anything suspicious, then I put my daydreams over my eyes, and just kinda zone out while I'm doing things, although when I talk to people its like thoughts are coming from a bunch of different places in my head, all trying to be the right one, and it's me thinking, but I'm only choosing between the paths, I'm not really choosing the thoughts themselves?
This is when I feel uncomfortable (which is almost always for the past 15 months or so, except when I'm alone, or doing something my body can do without me), and recently it's been giving me headaches, although now that I think about it, I may have always had headaches, just never remembered them, because I used to think I repressed all my anger, but today when i felt real for a little bit, I remembered getting mad when I was younger.
There was a bit between getting out of treatment and dealing with my ex who I felt like everything had real color when I was with, and I could actually feel things instead of just knowing it distantly? It's hard to remember, lol and I'm not sure which memories are real, or if I'm just making them up, because people keep telling me I said things I don't remember saying.
But I digress, and I've lost the rest of the what I was saying (happens a lot).

I guess I kinda just throw facts out to see what conclusions other people come to, because it takes forever for me to sift through things and I'm kinda at war in my head, and I'm getting a headache again lol. So I think the question was, does this sound like dissociating?

also when I'm comfortable with people, I set my body to talking, while I daydream, and just check back in every so often, but I always have a hard time listening to people, because even if I'm interested, in the background my mind is still talking and thinking of stories. lol its so weird trying to isolate things and spell them out coherently.

Like, is it weird that when I daydream, or read books, or play video games, its like in the back of my mind im pausing, editing, playing and replaying, and discussing these adventures i think of? Honestly it never stops, even when I try to focus on something, i just keep chattering away in the back. Well, when I'm drunk or high I'm usually only 1 person, although I've started blacking out while drunk, and when I was still fighting with my ex (who i think is like me in that we both have pieces of mind floating around, although she has never been hit and kicked and choked and smothered and picked up by the ear/hair/throat, slammed into the wall, or one of the most annoying things, picked up by the throat, then ground against the door frame and hit against the top of it, or getting your head squeezed) {which is probably why we get along so well in all ways except the fact that she cheats} I was yelling at her, I have no idea what I said, but I can bet it wasn't good because the things the angry part of me comes up with are mean. Honestly I hate that, I don't understand why I can't just keep my mouth shut, but they all seem to make sense when I'm mad, I'd rather break things or hurt myself than be mean. But I will again lol, I always lose it, Its like a never ending cycle, that's why I always want to go along with the suicide yeller, even though I hate him. at times anyway, if it's me, I'm tired of hating me, but I can never figure out how to deal with people. I don't understand humans lol

I digress again, I think I'm way off topic now, but yea. thanks for reading lol, I probably look like an idiot. I think I also am an attention-seeker, but I always push everyone away, seems contradictory? lol

Sorry that this doesn't make sense, Im sorta weird

 

[i think its very sad]

I need to find a therapist who can help me manage the results of psychological emotional abuse from my mother from birth along with very frequent physical abuse from 2 of my brothers and my mother as well as just living in a completely disfunctional family where my father tried to kill my mother on a repeated basis, my mother seemed to like it; she kept asking for it. The violence was extreme and even I had to get envolved in it as time passed; I'd have to sneak up on my father and knock him out with a crescent wrench so we could go back in our house. I started this at about 8 years old & I've never been violent towards anyone else in my life. I could not spank my children; I just dont believe that violence is ever appropriate or useful. Their relationship ended when she shot him when I was 14. After that the abuse of me got more frequent and severe; she seemed to crave violence. Okay, what type of a therapist do I need to try to help me. I've been able to live and be okay in a very low stress existence by being overly devoted to my children & their needs & not having much of a life of my own. Now that they are adults, I have nothing left. Im alone. Im bored, Im depressed. My mind isnt right, I spend a lot of time just spaced out. I dont know if anyone else has ever done this, but I've spent a lot of my life pretending to be in an entirely different situation than the one Im actually in just so I can be happy enough to get through what has to be done. I used to pretend I was an indian in a cowboy story sneaking up on my dad to knock him out, for instance. Its like writing a movie in my mind and acting a part. I pretend to be whoever I have to be. Is this some kind of common dissociation? Is it bad for you? As a sick person with social phobia tomorrow Im going to dress up as responsible mom and go to the drugstore. Responsible mom does not act like I do at home. But I feel like I cant leave the house and somebody has to go get my medicine. Does this make any sense to anyone?

 

[sea]

Can you do things when you dissociate and have no memory about it? Or blank out and forget what is going on? The description wasn't that clear (I have bad concentration). It wasn't clear also if you continue doing normal things. I know that I often will continue doing things but I just don't remember doing them, like taking the bus I won't remember getting on the bus, but I will have blanked on getting off again. But sometimes I also stop doing anything entirely and just freeze and do nothing, and completely tune out everything and I have no thoughts or feelings and it's like I lose time but I am somehow kind of aware at the same time, just not of the outside world. ?????

 

[i think its very sad]

I certainly spend a lot of time in all of the states you describe. Responsible mom is very efficient and I do things on autopilot, that is why I become her; its the only way to get things done. She's not a ficticious character; she's who I thought I was all these years. She's who I was most of the time & I guess the problem is , now that my children aren't here most of the time; I dont need to be her very often, only when I leave the house 2 or 3 times a month. It makes it more difficult to remember what to act like.

I started zoning out in school in jr. high. id look out the window and daydream about the flowers, at the end of the class id make a perfect score on the pop quiz even though i wasnt paying any attention at all and didnt realize that id heard what the teacher said.

This worked so I just did it alot.

Who wouldnt prefer a beautiful fantasy world where you can just decide what is true and what gets pushed away. Ive always felt i had complete control of all of this but it must be strange for everyone else when they are trying to tell me some boring story that i've fiqured out already the ending of & I'm thinking about something else & cant pay attention. Excuses are that I've got a lot on my mind, I was thinking about something else or I'm too upset to talk to you right now. When Im too upset, I really cant make it go away at will.

With responsible mom, I'm afraid to go to the store so when I'm all ready to go there is this split second when I'm walking out of the door that I actually feel like everything has changed, everything looks different. Its pretty scary, but I get used to it & get to the store & its easier to just go on autopilot and do what has to be done. a lot of the time i sort of list out in my mind what has to be done & zone out, come back, realize that its almost done.

I enjoy doing no brainer things that I dont have to pay any attention, but it still gets done. To me that is as happy as I get. A few times when I was very upset over something stressing in my life, I have felt like I was shattering, literally falling apart or going to but I manage to calm down, rest up and pretend to be responsible mom again.

 

[i think its very sad]

The reason its so easy to refer to responsible mom in the 3rd person now is not that I even realized that she existed. I have referred to her to my children all their lives in the context that "now Im going to dress up as responsible mom so we can go to the store. She has special clothes, she wears jewelry & make-up & I havent really dressed up like that in 2 years. Im fixing to go to the store. I put on shopping clothes but the jewelry stays in the box and the makeup stays in the drawer. Maybe some perfume. I guess shes evolved into old, sick, but still responsible granny now. I dont have grandchildren. If I did I'd evolve into fun granny, I guess.

I'm confused, sick & tired. I never needed to pretend to be another person to drive or shop until the panic attacks started in my 30's. I was always shy, but I had a lot of friends and they made all of the social overtures & they loved me so I didn't have to pretend to be another person.

I had a lot of secrets though, a lot.

 

[i think its very sad]

So, the question is: Is it safe to say that I need to find a trauma therapist and tell them that I have ptsd caused by complex, life- long trauma & that I have a serious problem with intentional dissociation? Further, should I accept the fact that while I always know whats going on in the real world I in fact am "out of touch with reality" by choice and thats what being out of touch with reality can mean? Does anyone know? I almost burned up in a house fire at 11 and my dad died when I was 14, my boyfriend when I was 15 and my brother, my boyfriend and my best friends boyfriend who was also like a brother to me when i was 17. car wrecks and such. So. I've determined that it is almost impossible for me not to have had ptsd.

 

[anthony]

Is it safe to say that I need to find a trauma therapist and tell them that I have ptsd

That about sums it up.... yes!

 

[Deleted member 8714]

Can a person have fragments and not even realize it?

I don't know someone answered your question. Yes you can. It depends on how your "system of parts" were developed and their purposes.