General Do Lists Help Or Hurt?

[Oldguy]

I'm new here, so please excuse me if I sound ignorant. I have been doing a lot of reading and exploring on the forum and today was scanning some of the Trauma Diaries of Sufferers. I found a common theme of making lists that I wonder if someone could expand upon or explain for me.

The lists I see are very extensive covering everything from self care to relationships to goals and everything in between. My sufferer makes lists as well. I'm not just talking about the grocery list or the honey do list. The lists she makes, and the ones I see here are more like road maps to what is perceived as the way to "normal". I look at these lists and being considered "normal" there is no way I could accomplish the things on them. Why the seemingly unrealistic expectations of ones self?

The thought struck me, that if these lists are maps to "normal" then aren't they missing life by concentrating on the map? Let me see if I can explain what I mean.

My sufferer wants to take a trip and so we sit down with a map and plan a route and where we will stop and how far we will travel each day and what we need to bring and how much, etc. I understand this is a necessary step for her to feel safe and in control and I have no problem doing this with her. BUT, now that she has this list and this map and it is loaded into the navigation of the car, she spends each step of the trip watching the navigation for how far we have gone, how far we have yet to go, when is the next turn, etc. Then when we reach that point, she doesn't stop there, she is on to the next step of the trip doing the same thing and checking and double checking her list to make sure we have everything.

My point is this, there is so much attention paid to the navigation and the list, that she misses the sights and beauty of what is outside the car window. She is so engrossed in the steps of getting from point "A" to point "B" that she misses the experience of getting there. I try to point out things I think she would like to see, like a rainbow, or beautiful landscape, or interesting birds or animals, or the blue sky, or odd clouds, but most the time she misses them because she has her eyes fixed on the navigation or the list.

As I read through the diaries, I saw that this is a pattern with sufferers. Honestly, what is normal? If I were to try and live by any one of the lists I saw today, I would drive myself crazy. I couldn't do it, nor would I want to. To me, that is not living, nor is it the way to "normal". I might be so bold as to say, it is a very self centered way of living. It doesn't leave room for anyone or anything else that might be interesting or worth looking at or getting to know.

How can I (we) as supporters fit into this life of lists? How can I (we) get them (sufferers) to see beyond themselves? The lists (in my opinion) don't leave room for living, yet that is what they (sufferers) all say they want to do. I say, then drop the list and come for a walk with me and feel the sand in your toes, or the sun on your face, or watch the birds float and glide in the sky, or lets stop for a spontaneous ice cream or coffee and just enjoy our surroundings. They (surroundings) can be good and beautiful and safe. I just want my sufferer to experience what it is like to NOT be hyper vigilant and full of anxiety all the time. Is that possible?

 

[Tinyflame]

I would say not always easily. But not intended out of self but getting through. The lists can be the means to the end of managing the hypervigilance, anxiety & even 'remembering'.

It really takes a lot to 'relax' & feel safe & 'forget'.

Am sure others will have better input.

 

[nursenurse]

If it were so easy for sufferers, this forum would not exist.

Those lists and maps represent safety because most sufferers do not want to be blind sided and hurt, or made to feel more anxious and alone than they already are.

Can it get better? Of course it can, but having experienced something that neither you nor I have causes certain defence mechanisms to be erected. Some can be levelled a bit, others not so much. You have to be patient. Perhaps in time, with repetition the trust will build, and she will be able to enjoy a certain amount iof spontaneity. However, I think it may be unrealistic to expect her seeming ""obsession" with lists and maps to disappear all together.

 

[The Albatross]

My personal goals (I'm the PTSD in my marriage) are independent of my relationship with my spouse. I do not make lists for myself during my time with my spouse, or for him. I spend some of my time each day restoring the sense of confidence that was stolen from me during my traumas and abuse.

My spouse (the supporter) though has read through material about PTSD with me and we have a PTSD relationship book we are about half way through right now. I do not though ask him for accommodations very often as I see it as up to me to prepare myself for events, activities or stressful situations.

 

[Tinyflame]

Agree with everyone above. And I love spontaneity if I can feel safe enough, (but that's kind of an oxymoron considering it usually requires planning or 'thinking' of details in advance). But even in your example, all I can think is unless I had a (death-grip) hold on the person's hand it wouldn't be relaxing at all. Conversely & oddly enough unless it was the night & I wanted to be somewhere alone.

I think we try to make things possible & not disappoint others or ourselves. But one crowd, one wrong-happening, a bad day,no exit for example, stupid details like that & things can go south quickly.

 

[Laura 2]

@Oldguy - It was interesting to read your post. I like your thoughtfulness for one thing.

I make lists - partly because my memory is so poor. I had a pre-existing memory problem which I reckon has been made worse by the PTSI. Sometimes, I find that I've made lists about making lists. PTSI really does mess up normal memory functions, it makes you feel so lost and in a huge fog.

Making lists is a way of controlling the world, it makes you feel like you're achieving something and taking back control - which is a major tick in the box when your world has been utterly shattered due to events/people entirely outside your control. (We all need to feel that we're in control of our little corner of the world. One of the chief conditions for any sort of mental illness is having your control taken away or eroded.)

I also make a list for when I see doctors/officials because I am so very frightened of them (I was terrifyingly abused by an NHS doctor) that without a list I become a gibbering idiot.

Having said all that, I have an apparently completely mentally healthy friend, never suffered so much as a day's depression or anxiety etc, but she is Mrs Uber-Obsessive about planning trips, has a huge collection of maps for all occasions, is a hellish back-seat-driver! Often, when I'm driving, her anxiety about going in the right direction is so great that it actually causes us to take wrong turns or ending up going round and round roundabouts etc.

Fortunately, I don't care if I get lost, travelling is all a fun adventure to me. Driving is the one activity where I can mostly feel free to relax (as much as I ever can), I'm in control and it's one of the rare areas of my life that's not so affected by the PTSI.

But knowing what I do about anxiety and needing to be in control, I just let my friend's obsession with directions roll right over my head whilst doing all I can to comply with those directions because I just hate to see her discomfort. It's simply a matter of patience and understanding what's underlying the apparent obsession (you know, I reckon it's something to do with a couple of major car accidents she had decades ago - but she won't talk about them. A touch of denied PTSI there....??!)

But the good thing is that she does take lots of time to relax and enjoy the destination and smell the coffee once we get there.

My point is that all of us, PTSI or not, have our hot-buttons.

I'm betting that there will come a time when your sufferer can relax more. Is she in therapy?

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I make lists of things to do when I have a project to do. I make lists of symptoms when I go to a doctor. I am not a hard core list maker but I have found having these lists help guide me as I do my thing. It keeps all of the information I need to be organized and I can check things off the list as they get accomplished.

It sounds like you have expectations of her that she is unable or unwilling to do because she cannot at this time. Just my opinion.

An expectation is a premeditated resentment. I am hoping that you do all in your power to meet your own needs and wants independent of her.

She probably is using it as a hobby of sorts or a way to handle whatever on the trip. She may not always be this way as people change as they learn and grow in time.

Take really good care of yourself as it sounds like she is unable or unwilling to accomadate your needs right now. I am wishing you both the best.

 

[Laura 2]

An expectation is a premeditated resentment.

Gosh. That's such a wise observation. Going to be pondering that and putting it on my 'keeper quote' list! Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Laura, my husband came home from a twelve step group and shared that one with me. It is so true and it has really helped me so much over time.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Wow, I am a sufferer and this list thing is TOTALLY new to me! I don't go into the trauma diaries because they are triggering and I end up having nightmares about other peoples traumas. (I am HIGHLY empathetic and take on too much of the pain of others, so reading trauma diaries isn't helpful to me.)

Can you possibly give an example of the lists you see along with the unrealistic expectations? I am curious, but I won't go digging into the diaries. It would help those of us respond if we knew exactly what you were talking about. I am curious what is on these lists and how detailed they are.

I have daily "to do" lists, but of course, what you are talking about is much more than that. I also have a mental list of my pathway to health, but again, I think what you are talking about is much more.

Please don't take what I am about to say in the wrong way. I am not saying it to be rude or hurtful.

As a supporter it is impossible for you to understand what we have been through or what we are currently dealing with. In a perfect world, your sufferer would be able to enjoy the sights on the trip, but unfortunately, this isn't the case. Why does your sufferer behave in this manor? She feels unsafe. Following the map meticulously is how she attempts to feel safe. Safety is a concept that is not understood by many people, and unless you've been in the position of constantly feeling unsafe, you don't know what this feels like as you simply can't.

Safety is a basic human need that is taken for granted by many/most. There is something called the pyramid of human needs. At the bottom is food/shelter/water. Right above this is the need for safety. Further up the pyramid is love/belonging needs, then esteem needs, with self-actualization at the very top. Perhaps this gives you a bit more insight into why we have such great issues with safety?

I have been through a LOT of therapy, including processing my traumas, but I still continue to struggle with the issue of safety. I have gotten better over the years, but it will likely be an ongoing struggle. It stinks that I am still near the bottom of the pyramid, but until I can develop a more permanent sense of safety, I don't have a prayer of being able to fully realize anything further up the pyramid.

Does this help you to understand better why she needs to focus on that map? Safety trumps all. Simply enjoying the sights would be nice, but she is still struggling to have her basic human needs met. The scenery doesn't matter one iota while she is struggling just to feel that sense of safety.

I realize this is a bit off tangent from your list question, but I felt the need to comment on it nonetheless.

 

[shell]

I can totally relate to your partner, planning holidays down to the last minute was something I have done in the past, I needed to control everything because it helped me to feel safer, when I was stressing out about going somewhere that isn't familar.

I wasn't even aware I was feeling unsafe, and I wasn't aware of my obsession with needing to be in control of every situation, the more I have worked on my self the more I have become self aware of ways I protect myself from being hurt or feeling unsafe and threatened.
Just being a passenger in a car is very triggering for me, I worked on small trips allowing my husband to be in control, and being mindful of what is actually happening rather than what I fear is happening. At times I still become afraid, but I can calm myself down, and compose myself enough when we arrive to get out of the car and really be in the moment and enjoy the scenery.

We are going to Queensland in a few months, I haven't planned the trip other than to book accommodation in two locations, so it is possible to change, the safer I am starting to feel in myself and my relationships the more spontaneous I have become.

 

[Friday]

I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum.

My "safe" is totally randomized.

I have to work really, really hard in order to be consistent and predictable (for my son). When my son is taken out of the equation? Like before he was born?

I got on airplanes, trains, cars... With no notice. Literally stop in the middle of what I was doing and get on a plane for Riyadh. In the changeover in Paris, walk out, head to the train station and go to Italy. Get on a boat and head to Kosovo. Work there for awhile. In the middle of breakfast, walk out -again, leaving everything behind me- and go to Iowa. Or Thailand.

I worked natural disasters, war zones, NGOs, charity groups, security groups, restaurants, farm labor, medical. I'm adaptable.

Having my son meant I had to (chose to) put all of that behind me, and sit still.
At a gut level, I hate it. But I love my son waaaaaaay more.
So if that means a fixed address, and fixed locations, and semi-fixed routes with choke points, well so be it.

And UNLIKE an adult, who can take care of themselves / take me or leave me as I am... A child bears responsibility. I know I'm slightly mad, and I didn't want that rubbing off on him. So while I am unwilling to love with my skin crawling for sake of an adult, I'm more than willing to do so for my son. We all make the decision as to whether or not we're going to step out in traffic for our kids at the very beginning. You're either willing to sacrifice your personal happiness for theirs, or not.

I still vary my routes, and mess about with timing aspects and plans.
Not is a useful way, anyone who wants to find me could by the time I've finished sneezing.
I still feed the elephants child, and still travel (with bleeding reservations made in advance, no matter how much I hate it).
And the UPSIDE to living out of my comfort zone, is that when things go wrong -as they always do- he gets to see me slip INTO my comfort zone.
Hotel lost our reservation? No sweat. Stuck in an airport /missed our flight? Easy easy. No utilities for a mOnth? Child's play kiddo... Here's what we do. :D

I know my "stuff" isn't normal.
But it's also who I am.
What I was made, and my reactions to that, which create who I am.

Just like after I was raped?
I slept with a bakers dozen worth of beautiful, sweet, would never hurt a woman for any reason in the first week. And heaven only knows how many after that.
Rape victims tend to go one of two ways: 0 or 60.
Trauma victims tend to go one of two ways : precision & control, or beautiful chaos.

I went into high-gear after I was raped, and after the whole trauma thing, I became a ghost. Poof. Now you see me, now you don't.

People like you're girlfriend are more functional than people like me.
Also, a lot more likely to survive.

But both of us are HAPPY.

I need to go feel the sand in my toes in Cypress, when they're cold in Chicago.
She needs to make sure you get to the durn beach in the first place, and have a home, and job, and family to return to.
Both of us are exquisitely happy and relaxed when doing our "thing".

Trust me, not being able to do our "thing"?
We can do it. But only at a high price. And that price is happiness.

Instead of feeling bad for what she's missing out on...
Consider every single piece of what she's shifting, and sorting, to be a rainbow.
All those moving parts, and she's like a symphony conductor & composer.
Conductors don't hate music... Just because they have to be moving their arms.
All the planning is like composing a piece of music. Okay, and then the brass! Here. To counterpoint, and yes yes the violins, then the woodwinds.

It's only at the END of the music, after threatening to murder the basoon player if he comes in late -again- it has to swell, swell! This traffic jam completely messes up our timetable! Only at the END of the music, or the journey, does the conductor... Finis.