Do narcissist parents have children for supply?

[Dana1010]

In psych terms, it isn’t really. The narcissist already knows they look better.

This conflicts with other things I've read. For instance, I've read that narcs are in fact extremely insecure, and this is what drives their selfish use of others. Also, if they already know they look better, why do they need narcissistic supply in the first place?

Needing underlings to have a sense of self - in this hypothetical, is the individual satisfied with one underling? Or do they find that they tire of one and move onto another, or want more than one person they ‘control’?

Well, the spouse would be the main source. Then the children are additional sources and are "groomed" to be sad and pathetic to feed the narcissist's need to feel superior to others.

 

[joeylittle]

I've read that narcs are in fact extremely insecure, and this is what drives their selfish use of others

That’s been a theory, but it’s not quite in line with the current (DSM 5) thinking.

They have a very fragile ego - meaning, the slightest threat to it will cause disproportionate reactions, towards anger, isolation, or revenge. A fragile ego isn’t the same as low self-esteem, or low self-concept.

So - a person who feels badly about themselves, thinks bad thoughts about themselves - is insecure in their self-concept: that person can become quite cruel in their actions towards others. The analysis of that behavior is generally that the individual is so beaten down internally, that they beat down others when their own psyche can’t endure internal beatings. Or, that they want to externalize their pain and see the world feel as badly as they do.

Someone with an overinflated sense of self has something of the opposite problem - they experience extreme cognitive dissonance when the world does not recognize their greatness. They are highly competitive by nature, because they believe others envy them - and so they need to maintain their position as THE most important. So that’s the answer to this:

Also, if they already know they look better, why do they need narcissistic supply in the first place?

They have a need to be at the center all of the time - and are suspicious of others, always, because they assume that how they are is how others are.

If they were content with their sense of self, their ego wouldn’t be fragile, and they’d be much more able to believe they were awesome even if their world didn’t always agree.

Fragile ego is something that runs through all the cluster B’s. It’s easy to confuse it with low self concept, because those people are fragile in a different way - but they aren’t the same thing.

An analogy might be - someone with little to no sense of self is fragile the way an egg yolk is easily broken, when trying to separate it from the egg white. People with low self concept often describe themselves as having been broken, muddled, weak/soft/at fault.

Someone with an overinflated sense of self is fragile in the way mixing explosive chemicals can result in massive destruction. These people would describe themselves as powerful, volatile, worthy of respect, dangerous, rare.

But yeah - there’s a decent amount of ‘how to deal with a narcissist’ writing that suggests having empathy for their low self concept as a way to understand and tolerate them. And who knows, it may be true. It’s just not the most current interpretation of the symptom set.

I find it all really fascinating.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Its more likely that they have children because it fits into their image of who they are - the cente...

NPD parents can become really wrapped up in their child’s success as proof they as the parent are...

This is what I'm talking about, I think. Like, the person is a mirror for them. "You look bad, so ther...

This conflicts with other things I've read. For instance, I've read that narcs are in fact extremely i...

They are so insecure that they have to be right and better-and they truly believe they are. They can’t imagine that they are wrong. They are often black and white in thinking, there is little gray unless it will feed there ego to change ideology. Think of a self righteous King or Queen whose gone sour to their kingdom-their role is quite extensive-they are the ruler, rule maker, person to make exceptions for the rules, the punisher, and provider- and can choose to be evil or kind. Narcissists don’t tend to be kind- unless it serves a purpose. There is a specific pattern to a true narcissist.

in my case hubby made the rules, dictated his role around HIS house, did the budget, punished when I didn’t live up to his expectations in my house chores ( I was allowed to clean and cook for him) dictated who could come for dinner, who could come in his house, and was threatening if I didn’t do what he said. He threw away important papers that were irreplaceable, my family photos, brand new expensive leather shoes, and there were very broad boundaries- when angry those boundaries changed- he’d take my keys, dismantal wifi, my car, my computer, or my TV. That is just one kind of narcissist- some are much uglier and more manipulative with great storytelling capabilities and charisma- and you’ll always feel shitty after they suck you dry. Whatever flavor narcissist- they all hurt and get you feeling and believing you are crazy. You aren’t- they are. Whatever they are in behavior they accuse you of being always keeping the targeted person on the defensive. That’s my experience anyway.

 

[Fadeaway]

I have read quite a bit on narcissism. The more I read from non professional sources the more I was thinking that I could lable just about everyone out there as NPD. :cautious:

Somthing worth mentioning is the golden child versus the scapegoat. It's very common for narcissistic parents to have one of each.

Like others, I have that need to try and understand my abusers, and between this thread, proffesional and non professional sources, I am starting to understand why my grandmother couldn't and wouldn't admit her golden child abused me. She literally couldn't because it would destroy her world view, because he was her precious perfect baby boy, while I was the scapegoat, as my mother was before me I assume.

 

[Fadeaway]

@Bkinder that doesn't sound like narcissism, that sounds like anti-social personality disorder. I have dealt with both, they may have some overlapping traits, but they are quite different. Antisocials aren't insecure either, just the opposite infact.

 

[Friday]

@Dana1010

So my exhusband’s diagnosis is Blah-Blah-Blah with narcissistic tendencies. That piece right there means he was nowhere near full blown NPD. It was just the occasional facet, more present than with most people, but not full blown. And included examples like

Center of Attenrion
- The place he felt most at home / right / best was up on stage in front of thousands of people screaming his name. He’s a pro musician, amongst other things. Nearly every other musician up there also loves that aspect of the job... but they don’t all have narcissistic tendencies, much less narcissism. Loving being the Center of Attention almost excludes them, by definition, because loving it & seeking it out? Means it’s not their idea of normal. It’s a rush, a thrill, something they exult in, revel in, glorify in. That’s very different from it being considered as normal as making a sandwich. <<< That piece right there was very useful to me because it meant that part of keeping my ex happy was surrounding him with people. Not because he was an extrovert (extroverts also need to be surrounded by people to be happy, because being by themselves is exhausting), but because the more on his own he was the more upset & cranky he became, because true “normal / okay” for him was surrounded by screaming fans. For him being in a small group (or worse, a familiar small group) is probably pretty similar to most people being locked in solitary confinement. It made him upset, unhappy, increasingly desperate, prone to rage and lashing out.

Overreactions
- He reacted to being embarrassed like most people would react to having their child murdered. The. Single. Worst. Thing. that could be done to my ex was to embarrass him. In any way. Blind (sometimes uncontrollable) rage was the immediate result, and vengeance/revenge followed. Tenfold. Very “They bring a bat, we bring a gun. They put one of ours in the hospital, we put one of theirs in the morgue.” Someone pointed out a no-big-deal mistake of his at (day job) work? Within the month that person would not only be fired, but their professional reputation ruined. They wouldn’t be able to work in their field. It would be almost impossible to trace back to my because no one would think “Hey bro, you mislabeled Table AAA. as Table aaa” as rating that kind of response; except the chortling glee & outlining of all the steps he took in Private, and smug triumph in public, gave HIM a reputation of “Don’t f*ck with this guy. Seriously. Bullshit problems? Fix them. Don’t bring them to his attention.”

- I made the HUGE mistake, once, of mentioning to him at a party that a common repair he’d attempted on my Jeep (that I did all the time, because those suckers rattle loose) he’d forgotten to screw it back in ((literally, “Hey, babe, you forgot to screw in the radiator you were working on earlier. Did you want to, or I could tomorrow?” Which would have been fine, except someone overheard me (and launched into a hilarious/commiserating story about how they’d forgotten the same thing once).... and a few months later (first time I wasn’t at home for a few days in a row) he cancelled my auto insurance (not his), put a hose through the window, and completely flooded it. Totalling it. Electrical system ruined, interior 3 inches thick with mold. Rusted to hell and gone. Flooded vehicles are a disaster. When I found out his response was that I needed to be less careless with my belongings, but at least it wouldn’t have to be screwed together anymore.” And then proceeded to tell everyone in creation about how careless & stupid I’d been, ruining my car leaving it out in the rain, and not keeping up on the insurance, so I was just going to have to learn my lesson and take the bus (in winter, with a sick child, because where I’d been? Was in the hospital with our son). Yep. Because I embarassed him in public. Having a stupid wife? Leaving your sick kid out in the cold and rain for hours. Not embarrassing in his world. We were just sattelites orbiting his world.

***

Again... these are JUST tendencies. Full blown NPD -a true narcissist- is much, much, much worse.

When most people say narcissism, narcissist, narsicisitic, NPD, etc.? What they really mean is selfish, self centered, childish, petty, spiteful, attention whore, etc.

 

[mumstheword]

I once made the mistake of saying "Aaawww A!" In a slightly disparaging tone because he'd lost a muffler, off a hire car and he's not the responsible type who would be bothered to take it back (he didn't take it back).
He screamed at me, the whole night to "get out". Problem was, we lived in a tiny shack in the middle of nowhere (so he could grow illegal drug plants). I couldn't drive and there was no car anyway, and we had five small children, including a baby. So I wasn't going to leave my babies to him (he'd impregnated me as a just-turned-17-year "-old and yeah, blah blah blah, I couldn't get away, nowhere to go.

Oh also, he was twice my age.

He was also a band leader/lead singer/guitarist/songwriter. He constantly threatened me for years "if you ever leave, you won't get the children. You're crazy". It worked for many, many years. He made good on his threat when I left (I knew my life would end soon or I would totally lose my mind, if I didn't leave) he made up all sorts of damning lies about me to alienate me from my children, which worked for a number of years. Not without many of them becoming suicidal and a couple struggling with psychosis, due to his drug control methods and gaslighting and depriving them of their mother.

For him, children give him status, protection, subsidied housing (which I had got after years of living on the road, having babies in car parks camp grounds and bush shacks and sheds) a tool to hurt me and get back at me for daring to leave him and hold him to account, an audience, minions to proselytize his "message" an "honourable role" (single fatherhood) and people to take care of him.

so yeah, he didn't want them at the time, other than how they gave him status. Said proudly once "I don't shoot blanks" so he got to feel virile. He didn't want the responsibility of the work of small children, he's not interested in our youngest. He wanted the teenagers and young adults.
He "became comatose" when I left so they had to rally around him and take care of him and resent me.He lied to them about me being life threateningly ill, telling them I was a "hypochondriac".
He wants children to be minions, props, carers and adoring fans, but won't actually care for them like a "normal" father would.

He still insists our autistic son who suffers from psychotic episodes "is fine, he just needs a job". Don't worry, I organised our spech son into supported accommodation and there are legal limitations in place so that his father can only see him once a month now. It saves him from becoming psychotic and having no prospects.
My son's pdoc called his father "grandiose" but of course, my ex thinks he's a perfect human, he's enlightened, has no shadow, is practically a saint and a "hero" who "saved me" when I was a 16 year old homeless girl. So there's no formal diagnosis.
He only ever agreed to go to a pdoc with the attitude "ok, we'll go, we'll see who the crazy one is" (gaslight, gaslight, gaslight).

 

[TruthSeeker]

@Bkinder that doesn't sound like narcissism, that sounds like anti-social personali...

I once made the mistake of saying "Aaawww A!" In a slightly disparaging tone because he'd lost a mu...

We do the best we can in any situation. While I sometimes like to self- batter- “ I should have done more” I eventually come back to this- I did the best I could. Sounds like you tried your best. Good luck with your self-journey.

 

[Suzetig]

When most people say narcissism, narcissist, narsicisitic, NPD, etc.? What they really mean is selfish, self centered, childish, petty, spiteful, attention whore, etc.

This. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an extreme diagnosis meaning the individual needs to sit quite far out of the norm. So selfishness, self centred, egotistical, petty, spiteful behaviours don’t necessarily point to narcissism any more than flashbacks and anxiety point to PTSD. The diagnosis is quite a complex thing.

Most people who are abusive aren’t disordered, which I think can be hard to fathom because we look for meaning and explanations and having a personality disorder is a pretty good “why”, especially if the alternative is to blame yourself. With narcissism part of the symptom cluster includes explosive behaviours and exploitative behaviours so it would make sense to say an abusive person is narcissistic but very often there’s something else driving the behaviour.

Fragile ego doesn’t mean low self esteem - I think pop psychology likes the idea of a bully or abuser actually being quite insecure because it redressed the power imbalance and, ironically, gives the victim a sense of superiority (I might be battered from here to hell, but at least I’m not insecure”.

With narcissism the insecurity isn’t there - part of the disorder is a complete sense of entitlement so profound that when someone does challenge it, it’s like the persons world has ended - they literally don’t understand why someone doesn’t see them the way they do abd they need to restore natural order. It’s not a “she did this and I’m going to get revenge” so much as “she did this and I need to world to look right again”. So, in @fridays case, she’s pointed out where her ex was at best mistaken or distracted (which couldn’t possibly be the case) so to restore the “natural” order of things - to make the world make sense to him - he goes way over and above to prove she’s more careless than him. Order restored.

Most folk can’t imagine that kind of world view so start looking for ways to simplify but this is one of those complex almost incomprehensible disorders.

 

[MyWillow]

I agree that narcissism is on a scale. Because there is healthy narcissism and it's becoming apparent that I don't have enough of it. Personally I like that my T talks about tendencies rather than diagnoses. The medical system I'm in doesn't require a diagnosis to enable treatment.

Interestingly my partner is a seriously professional muso. Ex military musician, specialist brass player, former orchestral player, teaches primary, secondary and tertiary students and plays in the top musical pit orchestras in town. One of the most annoyingly humble, self deprecating people I know. And all his mates are the same. I wonder if it is being a muso on stage that draws some folk in...?

 

[Friday]

Because there is healthy narcissism

So that’s exactly like saying there’s healthy PTSD. :cautious: :shifty: Or healthy psychopathy, healthy major depression, etc..

This is a pretty decent summarising

• A grandiose logic of self-importance
• A fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love
• A credence that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by, or should connect with, other extraordinary or important people or institutions
• A desire for unwarranted admiration
• A sense of entitlement
• Interpersonally oppressive behavior
• No form of empathy
• Resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her
• A display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/narcissistic-personality-disorder-dsm--5-301.81-(f60.81)

But right here is the actual diagnosis

A.Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.
AND
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the
feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain
B.
Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
1. Antagonism, characterized by:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert; self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.
b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/courses/materials/Narc.Pers.DSM.pdf

I’m suspecting you meant something different ... like healthy sadness, instead of healthy major depression // healthy taking time for one’s self instead of isolation // healthy self assuredness instead of zero empathy & disdain for others (ie traits that don’t rise to the level of symptom)... or are there actually some of these significant impairments sound like a good or wanted thing?

 

[Suzetig]

So that’s exactly like saying there’s healthy PTSD.

I read it more as there are traits considered to be narcissistic that in the right place are part of a healthy psyche. To use your analogy - PTSD by its very definition is disordered however there is a range of post trauma reactions that, while unpleasant, are perfectly healthy responses to trauma and which serve the purpose of helping us adjust post trauma and which facilitate post trauma growth. So flashbacks are unpleasant and can form part of a PTSD diagnosis but many people will report flashbacks who don’t have PTSD and who are recovering from trauma. It’s when the recovery process gets stuck that it becomes disordered.

Most people will to some degree have time when they are quite explosive with others, or when they prioritise their own needs over all else, or be quite grandiose in their outlook. Those traits are sometimes adaptive (prioritising my need for health care over all else might be needed if I have a life threatening illness). It’s when they happen consistently and excessively that they become disordered.