Do You Think That Suicidal Ideation Is Experienced As Trauma By The Core Self?

[Mystery]

I had this thought today. That suicidal ideation is a life threatening event to the self. I wonder what effect it has on the parts of the self that respond to life threatening situations. So it's like we are traumatizing ourselves further each time we 'go there', even though it is just ideation, some part of our brain must respond with fight or flight.

 

[Tinyflame]

Actually yes I've read that, except they didn't delve further in to a response (fight or flight).

 

[Chava]

Haven't heard that....interesting. I'd believe my suicidal thoughts came from a previously traumatized place...and have wondered before how much I probably further traumatized myself by waking up in ER with a tube down my throat....life was so totally unreal in those moments (and no family or any familiar people there....in my case, almost like a re-making of medical traumas over and over)

 

[Mystery]

Hi Junebug, thanks for replying. Can you remember where you read that?

 

[Meadowsweet]

For me, suicidal ideation is the flight response. It's connected to a feeling of wanting the fears that I'm feeling to stop, of wanting to get out of that place in my mind. It occurs as the 'way out' when there just appears to be no other way out.

The suicidal ideation is the way out, not the fear, so I don't see how it will traumatise me. The fears and memories that I'm trying to get away from, are what traumatised me, but that's already happened.

It is possible that suicide attempts could traumatise a person, but that is different from suicidal ideation..

 

[Tinyflame]

I've read that recently as well @Meadowsweet, but I will have to see where- a woman authority on trauma, I think.

I hope I am allowed to post a link @Mystery , it is David Conroy http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ptsd.htm .

I think it might depend on whether it's ideation with thoughts of relief (sort of) or those times when it seems inevitable despite trying everything not to. Individual experience/ perception.

 

[Mystery]

Hi Meadowsweet, I have the same experience of suicidal ideation being the 'flight'. More of a flight to fantasy as an escape. What I wondered was, does our subconscious mind actually percieve this as a death threat, even though on a conscious level it is just a momentary escape into the fantasy of the afterlife and if it does, does this set a cascade of flight or fight responses in us, which are indistinguishable from the original source of our pain.[DOUBLEPOST=1405006407,1405006346][/DOUBLEPOST]Thanks Junebug, I will have a read.

 

[KwanYingirl]

Interesting topic. I have been suicidal my whole life. It masqueraded as drug and alcohol abuse, self harm, eating disorders. While I managed to put those down, I am still left with 'IT'. My ego gets hurt, overwhelmed, terrified by memories of life threatening events, but has no baseline to reach for as my abuse started at age 4 and continued for many years.

I've always thought my SI is an unconscious attempt to dissociate permanently. Not this in and out shit that interferes with my daily functioning. But massively dissociative, to finally NOT BE ME.
But then there's tension between my emotional mind and my rational mind and it literally knocks me down. There seems to be no resolving that tension, then I crave a way out the ego fight. Christ, my ego had a cesspool to develop in. There were no comforting words of advice, nowhere to develop self esteem. It's a miracle we are still alive. And may I say that I'm glad we are because your posts have helped me so much. I need you!!!

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes @KwanYingirl , doesn't help & input make such a difference.

Hugs for you. :hug:

 

[Mystery]

Interesting topic. I have been suicidal my whole life. It masqueraded as drug and alcohol abuse, self harm, eating disorders. While I managed to put those down, I am still left with 'IT'. My ego gets hurt, overwhelmed, terrified by memories of life threatening events, but has no baseline to reach for as my abuse started at age 4 and continued for many years.

I've always thought my SI is an unconscious attempt to dissociate permanently. Not this in and out shit that interferes with my daily functioning. But massively dissociative, to finally NOT BE ME.
But then there's tension between my emotional mind and my rational mind and it literally knocks me down. There seems to be no resolving that tension, then I crave a way out the ego fight. Christ, my ego had a cesspool to develop in. There were no comforting words of advice, nowhere to develop self esteem. It's a miracle we are still alive. And may I say that I'm glad we are because your posts have helped me so much. I need you!!!

Hi KwanYingirl, I'm glad to meet you too! Me too, all of the above, except I had really early stuff as well. It IS a miracle we are here at all, I think that often. I am a living breathing example of life's mystery and resilience from the day I was conceived to today.

I call my ego fights 'cage fights'. Before I found this forum, I did a lot of reading of scientific articles on trauma therapy right back to the original theorist in the 1800's Janet, (pronounced Janay). I learned about my ego states and the parts of me that function in the world and the parts that don't. I'm just starting to do work on this, I'm scared about it though.

From what I can tell, the self doesn't develop along the regular pathway that it does in a nurturing environment and that different parts of ourselves stay stuck in various developmental stages that aren't integrated into the whole the way they are meant to be. The Self can never be put back together. It's like a vase that's been glued, it will always be a vase that was glued back together. That's the best we can hope for in therapy with this type of trauma. The one called complex. That gives us personality fragmentation.

So I started thinking that in terms of what I see myself as. I'm looking at a broken mirror all cracked and glued back together with my whole reflection in every shard and not actually seeing my whole reflection as one large self as it normally would be in an intact mirror. It's accepting this that is hard for me. The Self is many things, many compartments. It's still our self. I'm determined to see myself as a Kalaidescope eventually. I can still shine the colours and see the reflections, in a way its kind of cool. Does that make sense?

You've been suicidal your whole life is both sad and testament to your strength and inner resilience. These impoverished developmental starts we had gave us no ability to soothe ourselves. To have survived we must have a part of us that does it somehow, it has to be in there. That's why we do drugs, alcohol, food, relationships. I did too. I did drugs when I was younger and have always battled the body/eating disorder thing among others like terrible captive, abusive relationships that lasted decades.

I made a deal with myself that no matter what, I'm never going to do suicide, that I can depend on me as the first person in my whole life who will not let me down, reject and compete with me. I still ideate on it though at the worst times. What you say about permanent dissociation is an interesting observation too. I don't have the answers myself but it's really good to hear other people's experiences because the answers are there, we just haven't found them yet. I think we can redevelop aspects of the self but I think the kind of therapy needed is just not available yet.

Big Hug to You (((((0)))))

 

[Tinyflame]

Well, I think there are ways that help to develop self, but mine are not entirely conventional. Such as regular therapy (is).

Those are interesting thoughts.

I never learned to self-sooth, but I was definitely not suicidal as a child. The thought first came to me after the ptsd symptomology started. I tried twice, no one knew, at 14. Then I did everything I could for depression (self-help) & other stuff in my early 20's, I had changed my life (dumped the unhealthy coping skills) but I was afraid it might get to suicide & didn't want to put my mom through that. The 'depression' never really 'fit' though, it remains a bit 'atypical' for me. Now I realize then it was due to a bad relationship (if I can even call it that) at the time.

At about 37 I was in a very dire situation, it re-surfaced (SI) but I thought "I'll wait until..", with hopeful intention by then things might have somehow improved. I was doing really well & improving but 2 years later in 2008 a bad experience-date & somewhere in my subconscious I made up my mind to, I guess. Because I 'found' (outside) a book that said "How I stayed Alive While My Brain Was Trying To Kill Me", & I read the preface & realized that was the next step I had in my 'mind'. I struggled a lot with it after that, about 2 years were horrific. But I promised "God" & a friend who helped me, so they wouldn't worry/ think of it, that I wouldn't. I don't know 'how' or 'why' I'm still here though, except for help & a miracle.

Yesterday was really wonderful; I was walking the dog by a railway track & I never thought of "..hmm.. could I sit on it in the night?.." Yikes.

Hope everyone hangs in there. :hug:

A woman who recovered from ptsd/ SI & became a T said to her T "If you can understand why I might have to I might not have to". I think that's very true & insightful.

 

[Tinyflame]

But then I think, I've always tried to be positive about the 'crappy' stuff, & offer it up, & they say if we 'feel safe(r)' we fall apart, & that's part of 'healing'. So in a sense, for me, in retrospect the suffering 'might' have been expected, but actually was a 'gift' to me if it coincides with 'healing'. Though, wow- I don't know, I really don't know how I survived that. I could barely stop myself every opportunity that arose. Though I was working & caring 24 hour/ day care for a loved one.