News Doctor-Assisted Death For Those Living With Ptsd

[Tinyflame]

Many people with mental illness have clarity and insight into "what's wrong" with them and if they feel they can fix it enough to where life still holds value. To force someone to linger on when they already know they can't is just something I've never understood. The same goes for people with terminal illness that are forced to writhe around in pain even if they don't want to.

Yes, but ..

I don't think I can agree that the person who walks to the edge of the cliff is necessarily in a position to make a good choice, in the moment.

And not necessarily because of depression- or rather depression and pain that is founded, that life needs and requires love and support and help they do not have at that moment.

Maybe if he went he went to discuss his right to die with a "professional suicide consultant" in a private setting the gravity of that choice would've been more apparent to him..Maybe if he went he went to discuss his right to die with a "professional suicide consultant" in a private setting the gravity of that choice would've been more apparent to him. Maybe he would've recanted and chose some kind of help to address the damage that was done to him by the rapes he suffered.

But they are not there for that role. Indeed however US patients that have to self-administer have been known to change their mind.

I also really feel if that service was available he would've been able to disclose his rape to an anonymous non-judgemental individual. This is what psychologists go to school for. In his case, I genuinely believe he needed help for the torture he endured but he was so ashamed, so defined by it, he felt his only option was to die. "Professional suicide consultants" (that's what I'm calling them) are going to save more lives then approve deaths.

Were it their role..

I don’t know of a single medical provider that goes into that difficult field in order to slowly kill people for financial gain. Where does this thought come from?

They don't necessarily, but the system in Canada is for cost-cutting. Even comatose they will tell family to get the person out (of the bed), they won't be providing further 'assistance'.

we don't starve or dehydrate people til they die.. Like not in wards I've b

Almost every single experience with family they precisely did. All but one was in a coma; all were cognitively aware, responsive and communicative. All were associated to person place and time. There will be no desire to eat, for the most part. They will tell you that administering IV hydration will 'prolong the process (suffering)'.

I think the solution there would be to improve palliative care, not increasing societal support for assisted suicide of those with mental illness.. Insurance companies would have a financial gain to choose to kill off the disabled or mentally ill than treat them. It’s much cheaper to do a one time dose. It is not factually accurate to view it as either one has to have legal and medical support to die or else one is being forced to live. Suicide can be chosen without legal or medical support. No one is forcing someone with a mental illness to live. Hundreds of thousands manage to kill themselves around the world every year. It doesn’t need to be supported by medical providers and the law for one to end one’s life.

Legal and medical support doesn’t reduce the impact on those left behind. It simply doesn’t work that way.

Wanting medical and legal support for suicide strikes me as wanting something else than just to require others to support death by suicide. I’m not sure what it is, but it just strikes me as there wanting to be something more than just to ends one’s life. Perhaps validation of pain and self-determination? There are other ways to fight for validation and choice than to pour it all into doctor-assisted suicide.

I can not agree there is such a thing as a life that is not worthy to be lived, and I really fear the day the insurance companies and doctors would ever go around thinking that some lives are not worth living.

It's only about $. Most life insurance policies do not pay out for suicide. The population is aging, chronic iullness is widespread. Depression is predicted to be the #1 cause of 'illness' in North America by 2022. Care is costly. And how many people do you know (highly qualified or otherwise), who are going to provide that care when it's barely a livable wage, and their own lifelong injury, and a non-livable pension? (Much like with childcare.. they will pay more here to raise a pig (literally), than to work in child development). Or family members, willing to sacrifice, or able to?

There are states that are well worse than death.

. Being alone in one's suffering is one, IMHO.
I agree

Just because quality of life may suck does not make for a reason to end that life.

But to change that life.

effects of drugs pass.

Yes, and the effects of exclusion and isolation far harder to change. I wonder if people focus more on understanding that reality? But they can be changed.

. I worked in a ward where many people died. We would give them IV ativan and IV morphine to help the passage. It left them with little pain and calm. One family asked me if I could speed it up, since they had waited to long for their "loved" one to die. I told her I didn't do that. I stayed with one woman while she passed and stroked her head, since her daughter was just sitting there. It was a good passing for her. So no, I didn't let people die puking up their own shit.

nd that often applies, whether or not it's officially "legal" in a given country. There's one thing that's the official version, but often, in practise, there are dedicated professionals making sure to minimise suffering and pain and maximis

Yes it's always been going on (ilegally- consensually and non-consensually), but respectfully not what @dharma girl is referring to, I think. Am reading it as she assisted in care and reducing suffering (legal), not euthenasia (now legal if qualify).

The biggest factor, I would say? Is people can't get close to other's suffering- because they are not comfortable and not familiar, and ironically often- because they are familar with it, within themselves, and absolutely can't face or accept it (Reminds me of my mom working for some of the top Dr's in the world, said many said they went in to it and maintained the supposition 'they would not die'-?? :confused: ? -And that they frequently divorced their initial spouses, as they were too much a reminder of their pre-success, pre-affluent, or struggling days, but that is another topic ) . And making suffering disappear becomes the need, sometimes with fear, sometimes because a person just can't go there themself.

It's only MHO and therefore worth literally nothing, but I think there are several things that can make people want to die than fear the unknown and what they fear will be the unknown. It isn't a distorted mindset necessarily, but it can focus on things that actually can be changed, though the argument is what can't as the reason. I know everyone is individual, but I have never experienced one family member or person I cared for (thousands- I 'was' the person there, nearly every day, including their last) that died un-peaacefully (except for one family member where the choice was taken away, so they were simply (very) shortly 'dead'.) But, they were, surrounded by love: of one, or 2 or 6. Ill, dying, and at the moment of their death. They went on to live much longer than their prognoses (another 'problem': my 'palliative people were threatened off the system. leaving only to pay privately- atrocious , impossible cost for most- because 'they lived' too long, aka you're 'supposed' to be dead in 6 months and it's going on 2 years.. Same reason one cannot get a spot in hospice care- unless for the most part you have private pull).

Could the question really be, not should it be allowed (yes?), but should we allow ourselves and other humans to suffer so much death is preferable, and direct the argument to the right to live or die? Because (IMHO giving the care), it's never the physical- unbearable as it can even be- that becomes the deciding factor for that person.

Which doesn't infer it's someone's fault to choose it- only that their pain management is wholly insufficient, including in the case of ptsd. We will all die. We can all die in front of a train, or within a relatively short time without food, and especially fluids. But, is there anything to live for? Is there any one, or thing, or can we ourselves, stand side by side in what will be inevitable for all of us, regardless?

The same reason, I think, we will always remember how someone made us feel, not necessarily their words, or even most of their actions.

I hear of a society that says, ~ you are different, you are suffering, you are inconvenient, you actually- don't have rights- the right to want to live. Do (I) say, talk to me; tell me your fears, tell and show me who you are; I will carry you (now) when you are weak, and without judgment; we will get through this (even if the getting through is the Biggest Unknown of all). I will not abandon you in whatever you are facing, I will face it alongside you.

 

[frogthroat]

I hear of a society that says, ~ you are different, you are suffering, you are inconvenient, you actually- don't have rights- the right to want to live. Do (I) say, talk to me; tell me your fears, tell and show me who you are; I will carry you (now) when you are weak, and without judgment; we will get through this (even if the getting through is the Biggest Unknown of all). I will not abandon you in whatever you are facing, I will face it alongside you.

What about the thousands of homeless people on the street? What about he people living and neglected in state hospitals? What about DCFS and foster kids? I mean this doesn't apply in real life. This magical "everyone should be there for each other" mentality doesn't really exist. Yes, it would be nice but people aren't involved in an individual's situation. Have you ever been in an inpatient situation for mental health? It isn't like this at all. Mental health patients are very much an inconvenience and they are very much treated as if they are not human.
Nobody has a right to decide if somebody should live or die. If somebody can't exist why is it better for them to be in and out of hospitals, in and out of homelessness? Why is that a better option?

But they are not there for that role. Indeed however US patients that have to self-administer have been known to change their mind.

Do you have a source? If so please link it. As far as I know assisted suicide for mental health has never been okayed or even considered in the US. Maybe I'm wrong.
Also, if anyone wants a more in-depth explanation for the option for pro-suicide check out Mitchell Heisman's book Suicide Note. You can read it for free online.

 

[Tinyflame]

I mean this doesn't apply in real life. This magical "everyone should be there for each other" mentality doesn't really exist. Yes, it would be nice but people aren't involved in an individual's situation. Have you ever been in an inpatient situation for mental health? It isn't like this at all. Mental health patients are very much an inconvenience and they are very much treated as if they are not human.

Oh yes @RuffledFeathers I believe it. In fact, my only question is to whether I'd apply and argue ('prove') why.

What I am saying, is that the way it 'is', isn't the way it should be- but even more so needs to be. No change will happen without each person who will, changing what they can.

No, in the US it didn't apply to mental health. (Although, mental 'ill-health' is by definition in Canada being unable to handle without sufficient issue to one's own care and self, stressors).

No, just for me personally, I don't need to read about the pros or cons of suicide, I've attempted x2 and I live with it and the consequences, and the struggle not to repeat, or to choose to 'get it right'. I relate to those who feel they are the burden, not to those who have something to live for, or have people who would be harmed.

This is what has been said here most recently Dec 12th, 2018:

Medical Assistance in Dying

I had come back only to add, there were 2 people who had 'un-peaceful deaths', though I was not present. One had psychosis, and bipolar disorder and schizophrenia diagnosed with her siblings, but refused all psychiatric or therapeutic care or diagnosis- did not think her thoughts were out of sort, and really tried to destroy anyone who didn't support the hallucinations and explanations; the other expressed he hated the world, God, and everyone in it equally on a daily basis after his son's suicide. He tolerated civilly only the son's fiance's presence about twice a year.

 

[Justmehere]

Mental health patients are very much an inconvenience and they are very much treated as if they are not human.

This is a really great argument for not giving doctors the power to help them die.

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes @Justmehere I am not sure feeding in to the argument that the mentally or physically ill are a burden and inconvenience and have so little quality of life (nor ever will) death is preferable, in any way disproves that assertion. Most of us define ourselves to a great degree by how others view, and consequently treat, us.

Saying under the circumstances atm of course you'd rather die- who wouldn't feel that way is more accurate?- but what can be done, if anything, to reduce the pain? I think is a fair question.

 

[frogthroat]

This is a really great argument for not giving doctors the power to help them die.

How so?

Yes @Justmehere I am not sure feeding in to the argument that the mentally or physically ill are a burden and inconvenience and have so little quality of life (nor ever will) death is preferable, in any way disproves that assertion. Most of us define ourselves to a great degree by how others view, and consequently treat, us.

The counter argument is that this has been proven time and time again throughout history. Just because you personally experienced something different doesn't mean that this is the case for every individual experiencing mental illness.

 

[Tinyflame]

Just because you personally experienced something different

But I didn't say I did. Or I would not need to struggle. But my struggle doesn't mean that what I would choose if I could without looking at it from all angles is actually ultimately helpful to me or anyone else after. It's just immediate. And oh the perceived relief and consolation in that, because I am in the struggle itself.

ETA I would say this, respectfully, and only speaking for myself. Pain has a megaphone, and it's Christmas/ New Year('s eve), a time when much of the world (if they have the luxury) can think of what the past and (therefore?) future holds, for us often pain, loss, no family, and other triggers, feeling, often ( if we admit to it) as broken, defective, unloved, and/or beyond help- is that not proven by where/ who/what we are now, and what we don't have? Which really makes an end to it a pretty attractive thought, one that's best either fed or drowned out, somehow at least is another way. But, we've got ptsd- we can predict we'll feel worse, it will likely feel more intensified, because that is our focus. It's not immediate to stay with that, and ride it out, but it does move us a little further out of the tunnel or out of the focus. Just as they said in the findings above, some with mental health issues approved for assisted-death felt better, knowing they had something to fall back on. IME people who have much are busy wanting more, whereas people who are struggling just want the pain to stop.

 

[Justmehere]

Doctors have the power to hospitalize and have treated people inhumanely when they do so. I take it that you view they don’t use that power well. Now you want to give them the more power? The power to choose who can die and who can’t? Yikes.

What about DCFS and foster kids?

There are tragically limited funds for foster care. I find it appalling to suggest approaching health care for a foster child, as what it would quickly become: a choice of either spending this funding on therapy or on the cheaper solution of helping them kill themselves. I have zero trust that such a choice and power over impressionable children’s lives in foster care will not be abused.

If somebody can't exist why is it better for them to be in and out of hospitals, in and out of homelessness? Why is that a better option?

“If someone can’t exist”? Who is this? I’ve been in terrible places, in and out of hospitals. Many members of this forum have been in and out of homelessness. They all exist. I exist. I can’t think of a single person that does not have a life of great value.

@RuffledFeathers - Your life has great value too.

 

[Tinyflame]

'If somebody can't exist why is it better for them to be in and out of hospitals, in and out of homelessness? Why is that a better option? '

I agree with this.

 

[Tinyflame]

I should have said ^^, for others I'd hope they'd choose something else, but were it me in that position I'd like the option to choose. Which is pretty hypocritical, isn't it.

From what I understand here in Canada, the argument has gone off the rails: it sounds created to not 'replace suicide'- that is, someone is going to go just hasten the 'when'. (I always wondered why it was a 'problem' they died first, simply because they obviously made it to the end?). However, the original person granted it had a chronic physical condition- and therefore would not have qualified. The legal challenges now are chronic physical conditions. There is, however, no real understanding in quantifyingly comparing physical to emotional suffering; in fact, mental illness-wise they said number of SI attempts correlated to number of requests for it. Which they could deem a risk factor for why it should be disallowed, they are not interpreting it as a person already finding it unbearable.

Meaning, of course, there is a widespread lack of understanding of mental health, when pain and how the diseases interfere with activities of daily living or quality of life are subjective reports; we 'see' how physical illnesses impact, we measure them objectively. Not so with that that is unseen.

However, quality of life has several factors involved. Which include availability of resources, and if people are treated with dignity, or dismissed.

I, myself, don't know how to deal with dismissive people, whether it be large scale or small. I instead internalize it, and become more compliant in 'disappearing'. (I noticed this the other day when I found myself 'ducking' when someone looked over me as opposed to giving eye contact- let me get out of the way so you can see who or what you want, all the while wishing I had avoided the whole experience). You, @RuffledFeathers , on the other hand, have dealt with them, and can direct your voice to exposing what is wrong, if or when you ever choose. Harder, but one of the few people I've come across in my lifetime who has the qualities that could do it, if or when you ever choose. Well, you are doing it right now, here. Courageous, and not something you'd want to speak for or have experienced, but since you've survived it the longer you exist as that voice the more difficult it is for them to continue treating people that way. (At some point women had no rights; children had no rights; spouses had no rights; people of colour or any differences whether it be orientation, gender, beliefs, etc etc, had no rights; the MeToo movement didn't exist, and the list goes on.)

ETA, I have known people with both ptsd and physical issues, mostly cancer, and they have all said without exception the ptsd was more difficult to manage and endure than their physical conditions , which isn't minimizing the physical, just recognizing the emotional and psychological. Pain is pain, and pain unalleviated for long enough is unbearable.

 

[frogthroat]

Hey, to anyone reading this thread I feel like I have a personal responsibility to tell anyone reading my opinions on this subject that I have to go to a psychiatrist for bipolar or bipolar 2 I didn't know I had besides PTSD. I didn't realize I've been really ill until my last therapy session because I've been manic and not really listening to anyone. When I'm not deeply, deeply depressed or whatever else I don't believe in suicide and I'm not someone who condones it.
If you're reading this because you're feeling suicidal take a look at my old posts and realize just how ill a normal person can get in distress. That was a very, very unhappy version of me posting those opinions. How frightening is that? People with mental illness need love and support not an option to self-destruct. Everyone deserves to live.
I apologize to the people on this thread and will refrain from posting on such topics until I'm well.

 

[blackemerald1]

Do (I) say, talk to me; tell me your fears, tell and show me who you are; I will carry you (now) when you are weak, and without judgment; we will get through this (even if the getting through is the Biggest Unknown of all). I will not abandon you in whatever you are facing, I will face it alongside you.

^^A thousand times yes!! So eloquently written my friend. :)