General EMDR and lurking darkness

[ColinKevin]

My experience with EMDR is that I absolutely KNOW there is something more, if for no other reason than I know the memories we haven't yet worked on.

Defining something as "seismic" is completely subjective, and will largely depend on the fear IN THAT MOMENT due to the c/ptsd. In a different moment, it may not be as big as it is currently felt.

Stranger in a strange land? Not really. Because they are all my storage boxes. I HAVE been surprised by my reactions and/or learning the root of a feeling is different than what I anticipated.

Is your partner/sufferer unable and/or unwilling to explain their experience with you?

Always willing but sometimes it's, I guess, indefinable. Especially when it's having an impact and they are losing old unhelpful ways of thinking.
For me to understand it's useful to have a sense of the experiences of others too, as there is reassurance if knowing what the range of possibilities are. Or even that there is a massive range, cos that's what reading these forums has enabled me to realise.
Thank you for your question, don't know if ice answered it. But it helps me think things through

 

[Weemie]

I have not experienced EMDR, but I have experienced neurogenesis (which is what EMDR also does via bilateral pathway stimulation). I never got the sense that something was "lurking," but rather I gained access to very subtle distinctions that I've had to parse out and bring into light over time. Most of these were in the realm of emotions; "naming feelings," but some were very brutal memories that I gradually perceived the edges of and am still working out.

Because emotional awareness is so new for me:

can make you react without fully knowing what it is/might be?

this ^^ is very common. Neurogenesis changes the way your brain processes information. That means the memories and emotions you have will be altered from the baseline you are accustomed to. You might say "hey, that's great!" Because what you are used to causes suffering. But at the same time, you are used to it, so it is not shocking and novel nor without reference.

It's like wiping Windows off the computer and installing Linux. It's the same brain. It's a computer. You can do all the same basic things, for the most part. (Bear with me, it's not a perfect simile.) It has all the same functionality of your old computer, but now you have to re-organize how little things work that you may not always realize are now distinct. Instead of installing chrome.exe for the web browser, you use sudo apt-get and work with Chromium in the terminal.

The web browsing experience is fundamentally the same, you click open tabs and type in the URL and away you go. But if you don't know how to use the Linux terminal, that process takes time to learn and become comfortable with. You can feel like you're treading through an immense dark ocean with no ground beneath your feet. Things look and feel different. Your thoughts and internal sensations change.

Staying with the analogy, though, there are a ton of benefits to using Linux over Windows, and with time you'll wonder why you ever used Windows at all.

 

[ColinKevin]

I have not experienced EMDR, but I have experienced neurogenesis (which is what EMDR also does via bilateral pathway stimulation). I never got the sense that something was "lurking," but rather I gained access to very subtle distinctions that I've had to parse out and bring into light over time. Most of these were in the realm of emotions; "naming feelings," but some were very brutal memories that I gradually perceived the edges of and am still working out.

Because emotional awareness is so new for me:



this ^^ is very common. Neurogenesis changes the way your brain processes information. That means the memories and emotions you have will be altered from the baseline you are accustomed to. You might say "hey, that's great!" Because what you are used to causes suffering. But at the same time, you are used to it, so it is not shocking and novel nor without reference.

It's like wiping Windows off the computer and installing Linux. It's the same brain. It's a computer. You can do all the same basic things, for the most part. (Bear with me, it's not a perfect simile.) It has all the same functionality of your old computer, but now you have to re-organize how little things work that you may not always realize are now distinct. Instead of installing chrome.exe for the web browser, you use sudo apt-get and work with Chromium in the terminal.

The web browsing experience is fundamentally the same, you click open tabs and type in the URL and away you go. But if you don't know how to use the Linux terminal, that process takes time to learn and become comfortable with. You can feel like you're treading through an immense dark ocean with no ground beneath your feet. Things look and feel different. Your thoughts and internal sensations change.

Staying with the analogy, though, there are a ton of benefits to using Linux over Windows, and with time you'll wonder why you ever used Windows at all.

I think I'll need to re-read this as analogies really help with understanding. So thank you for taking the time to do this. Much appreciated

 

[Njay]

Yep.

Think of it this way - you are using emdr to dig up all the crap you hid from yourself to keep going.
So feeling like the world is going to explode? Pretty much my first year of emdr.

EMDR can be brutal. Really brutal.
The good news is that when it works it is amazing! So it will be worth it in the end

Make sure you are honest with your T about what's happening. They can tweak the process to try to help rein in some of the painful stuff and can actually use the emdr as a way to build coping skills for how to get thru emdr!

I’ve just started EMDR and have really struggled after my second session - lots of anxiety and mixed emotions, mainly sadness.

Do you have any tips/advice for getting through the aftermath of. sessions?
Also when things start getting better? Do you notice it after sessions or is it a gradual process?

I appreciate everyone’s different but my anxiety and PTSD made me cancel some plans I was looking forward this weekend. I just couldn’t handle it. Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

 

[Freida]

Do you have any tips/advice for getting throgh the aftermath of. sessions?

rest. Yep - that's pretty much the best thing you can do. I actually block it out on my calendar. If I can't take the whole day off I at least block out a few hours. And gentle distractions - like coloring or non violent video games or walking the dog. And then reminding myself over and and over -- it's just my brain puking up past memories so I can move past them.

Very important -- make sure you are letting your t know how you feel afterwards. EMDR is super flexible, so it can be dialed back if the aftermath is too much to handle. Keeping your t in the look can help because you can actually use emdr to develop coping skills for emdr! ya, who knew? Do Not try to just tough it out - it won't make it easier or faster. It will just make you more miserable.

Also when things start getting better? Do you notice it after sessions or is it a gradual process?

Its kind of both. Sometimes is like a light switch... blah blah misery misery holy crap I feel better! Suddenly that horrible memory that makes me want to puke is just...gone. It's just a sad event in my past, nothing more

The long term effects are a bit less dramatic. Sometimes I don't even realize anything has changed until one day I realize its just...easier.

Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

YES!!!! When it works emdr is amazing! It is hard to explain, but it's like things just click in your brain and you can just let it all go. Those flashbacks and nightmares and horrid memories just become old echos without any connection to today. One thing people get wrong is that it erases the memory, which isn't quite it. Instead it changes how you think about the memory.

Now when I think about a trauma I just think - wow. That really sucked but I got thru it. It's lost it's power over me.

I won't lie - it's a brutal process and sometimes it can take forever. I'm in year 5. Ya. 5.
Mostly because I won the trauma lottery and have a lot of crap to let go of LOL
I stay with it because, well, it works.

 

[ColinKevin]

YES!!!! When it works emdr is amazing! It is hard to explain, but it's like things just click in your brain and you can just let it all go. Those flashbacks and nightmares and horrid memories just become old echos without any connection to today. One thing people get wrong is that it erases the memory, which isn't quite it. Instead it changes how you think about the memory.

The trauma lottery , keep on staying with it. You are inspirational

 

[Tinyflame]

I haven't done Emdr, but I would say processing is brutal. There is for me a perception of negative lurking, but not if it's not present. And if I sense it, it's possibly accurate, or just the past twisting my thoughts, perceptions and experience if ĺ let it.

I don't feel like a stranger in a foreign land, but I sometimes feel like a misfit or broken, - different (can't find the word I'm looking for). A different lived reality than many around me, different challenges, different beliefs, different way of viewing life, different fears and also different priorities.

Welcome to you.

 

[Wendell_R]

Hi, @Njay.

For recuperation, I agree with @Freida that rest is really good. What I've found though is that it's helpful to figure out what kind of rest works for you. Sometimes I get brutally tired, but not the kind of tired that gets better with bed rest or just sitting. I figured out that because it was an emotional exhaustion, taking walks was the kind of emotional rest I needed.

I also have had the same experience as @Freida about things getting better--sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it's a slow fading of the trauma.

It helps to be honest and specific with your therapist about your post-session struggles (or joy, exhaustion, or insight). That's a good thing to do as soon as you next see your therapist. There's a difference between struggles that are manageable versus struggles that are debilitating. Even when EMDR seems to make things worse by opening doors to a trauma that was held down, you'd like to do that in a way that's emotionally manageable if possible.

Good luck on the journey.

 

[Freddyt]

Do you 'sense' that there is something seismic lurking and the fear of that can make you react without fully knowing what it is/might be? Or rather the fear of what it might be does.
Do you sometimes feel like a stranger in a foreign land?

Thanks in advance

Oh hell yes!!!!
EMDR can f*^% you up. That feeling of something seismic lurking????

So PTSD puts you at about 5-6 on the SUDS scale. Add EMDR stress and you are now 7-9 on the SUDS scale. Your brain uses the fear part to interpret the world and all your input. As you go higher on the SUDS scale - it gets really bad and interprets everything as a threat.

Learn that PTSD LIES TO YOU because all it understands is fear and panic.......that's all it knows.

Better outcomes? Plan around therapy. Plan for ERDR Hangover, prepare for the fact you may not function well for a time after sessions. Make your life simple in those times. Food and food prep - simple......Sleep will likely be not great.....when you push too much you will hit the top of the SUDS scale and dissociate and other bad things. Do all the things that help reduce stress and stay clear of all the things that add to your stress.

Learn how to manage your stress and reduce it. It's the one thing that helps the most - no it's the other thing that helps most.

What helps most is learning to tell when you are still doing reprocessing tasks and don't add more helps the most. For me the biggest symptom is....executive dysfunction (brain fog, working memory dysfunction - where your brain can't handle a bowl of cereal, coffee and OJ and you get a bowl of coffee grounds, a coffee mug of cereal, you try to put the milk away in the dishwasher, and you spend 5 minutes standing in front of the fridge wondering why you are there...)

So when I can't manage easy tasks, I tell my T all about my morning and I don't add more EMDR tasks. Wait and when things get "normalish" time to add more reprocessing. Hardest thing I had to learn.....seriously. When you are bad and you add- things can get to seismic....

 

[Njay]

rest. Yep - that's pretty much the best thing you can do. I actually block it out on my calendar. If I can't take the whole day off I at least block out a few hours. And gentle distractions - like coloring or non violent video games or walking the dog. And then reminding myself over and and over -- it's just my brain puking up past memories so I can move past them.

Very important -- make sure you are letting your t know how you feel afterwards. EMDR is super flexible, so it can be dialed back if the aftermath is too much to handle. Keeping your t in the look can help because you can actually use emdr to develop coping skills for emdr! ya, who knew? Do Not try to just tough it out - it won't make it easier or faster. It will just make you more miserable.


Its kind of both. Sometimes is like a light switch... blah blah misery misery holy crap I feel better! Suddenly that horrible memory that makes me want to puke is just...gone. It's just a sad event in my past, nothing more

The long term effects are a bit less dramatic. Sometimes I don't even realize anything has changed until one day I realize its just...easier.


YES!!!! When it works emdr is amazing! It is hard to explain, but it's like things just click in your brain and you can just let it all go. Those flashbacks and nightmares and horrid memories just become old echos without any connection to today. One thing people get wrong is that it erases the memory, which isn't quite it. Instead it changes how you think about the memory.

Now when I think about a trauma I just think - wow. That really sucked but I got thru it. It's lost it's power over me.

I won't lie - it's a brutal process and sometimes it can take forever. I'm in year 5. Ya. 5.
Mostly because I won the trauma lottery and have a lot of crap to let go of LOL
I stay with it because, well, it works.

Thank you @Freida for your words of wisdom - I really appreciate it.

I had a single event trauma but i disassociated from it completely and so I couldn’t work out why I had PTSD symptoms when “nothing” had happened to me. When I realised what had happened almost a year later I started CBT that didn’t help with the PTSD, more just emotionally processing things. Enter EMDR…

The last few days have been brutal - it’s been a real hangover of emotions and whilst I was happier before I started EMDR I understand it can only get fixed and resolved once I “break the bones” and work on properly healing them. I just hope that:
1. It’s a small bone to be re healed (and not an entire body cast needed!)
2. The EMDR kicks in to alleviate even a bit of the PTSD

On that point, how quickly does EMDR reduce PTSD? I think that’s my main worry - I could do a 1000 sessions but I need to know there’s some let up in the symptoms and I can at least be in public alone again…

Also, why do I feel so sad and low when I’ve dealt with what happened with CBT? I thought I was emotionally, over it and had accepted it. It feels like I’m physically and emotionally drained and exhausted by it all but worse than before when I realised what happened during that trauma?

Thank you so much,
Best wishes

Hi, @Njay.

For recuperation, I agree with @Freida that rest is really good. What I've found though is that it's helpful to figure out what kind of rest works for you. Sometimes I get brutally tired, but not the kind of tired that gets better with bed rest or just sitting. I figured out that because it was an emotional exhaustion, taking walks was the kind of emotional rest I needed.

I also have had the same experience as @Freida about things getting better--sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it's a slow fading of the trauma.

It helps to be honest and specific with your therapist about your post-session struggles (or joy, exhaustion, or insight). That's a good thing to do as soon as you next see your therapist. There's a difference between struggles that are manageable versus struggles that are debilitating. Even when EMDR seems to make things worse by opening doors to a trauma that was held down, you'd like to do that in a way that's emotionally manageable if possible.

Good luck on the journey.

Thank you @Wendell_R for your advice.

I think I have to be careful about pushing things too much but at the same time I really need to see some reduction in PTSD symptoms.

A walk sounds great but I can’t muster up the energy for that - feels like I want to sleep until next week!

 

[Friday]

If you are able to, or have experience of this, would you be able to help me understand this please?

When you are having EMDR and I understand it can initially make feelings worse or more pronounced. Do you 'sense' that there is something seismic lurking and the fear of that can make you react without fully knowing what it is/might be? Or rather the fear of what it might be does.
Do you sometimes feel like a stranger in a foreign land?

Thanks in advance

Fair warning… it’s not just EMDR… ANY kind of trauma therapy will cause an uptick in symptoms. How long those upticks last for? Varies person by person.

- Most people spike for at least several hours up to a few days with each session. Including a therapy “hangover”, that really/truly/actually feels like a “sleep it off” / there’s no powering through this level hangover.

- It’s usually a lot harder “in the beginning”… which, depending on the person, can be a matter of weeks or years.

- There’s often a highly predicitble arc where someone is far more symptomatic during the entire time they’re in therapy, in addition to the acute spikes.

It helps -in my experience, both as a sufferer/supporter- to think of trauma therapy like physical therapy, rather than feel-better-now normal couples/family/individual therapy. The months/years someone is in physical therapy rehabbing injuries & surgeries are brutal, painful, sweaty, exhausting periods of time. It’s perfectly natural for their to be anxiety & distress before the appointment, because you know it’s gonna hurt; and to be exhausted and in pain and short tempered after the appointment.

 

[Freida]

On that point, how quickly does EMDR reduce PTSD? I think that’s my main worry - I could do a 1000 sessions but I need to know there’s some let up in the symptoms and I can at least be in public alone again…

wellll.... you're going to hate this answer but... It takes as long as it takes.
I know, I can feel you cringing!

Short answer - for some people it's 2 or 3 sessions. For others it can take years.
But there will be wins along the way that will help you feel like you are making progress, so you won't just sit and spin.

to think of trauma therapy like physical therapy, rather than feel-better-now normal couples/family/individual therapy. The months/years someone is in physical therapy rehabbing injuries & surgeries are brutal, painful, sweaty, exhausting periods of time. It’s perfectly natural for their to be anxiety & distress before the appointment, because you know it’s gonna hurt; and to be exhausted and in pain and short tempered after the appointment.

This! book mark this!