Exploring Personal vs Religious Faith: Reflections on 'American Heretics'

[Shaylee]

American Heretics: The Politics of the Gospel [2019] Documentary​

Today I watched this out of curiosity more than anything. I have started a “journey” if you will to sort out the psychological impact of being raised in and then leaving Jehovah’s Witnesses. A cult, fundamentalist religion, high-control group, whatever you want to call it. But I am curious of other’s thoughts or opinions in general, religious or not. Looking for feedback I guess? Not sure. I am not looking to be preached at (done enough of that myself to cover everyone’s lifetimes twice over ) or told there is or is not a god, blah blah blah, or have a religious debate. But I am trying untangle things in my mind my personal associations that don’t particularly match up with even dictionary versions.

‘There is so much in this documentary that I was had a lot of weird moments with. It is also kind of an experiment because I very avidly avoid any religious or political stuff on basic principle. This is a bit of both but is not for the dogmatic teachings of many fundamentalist religions. I found the logic interesting, but I was more interested in taking in my own reactions.

So this was what stayed with me throughout my first viewing…

To say, you know the truth, you're absolutely certain, and, by the way, an interesting thing about people who say they're certain, then you need no faith.

This really caught my attention at the very beginning…. One of those “huh, ok, wow“ moments looking at possibly bigger implications. I truly, wholeheartedly believed I was in “The Truth“ when I was on the inside. There was zero doubt.

But I left what I knew to be “The Truth” and was left only holding myself but no longer certain of who I was in the slightest. Maybe I never had “faith” in the way it is actually meant. To me, I don’t have “faith” in myself because there is no certainty in who I am. From what I am seeing here faith comes from not knowing? Or not being sure? I don’t get that. In JWs losing faith was no longer believing that the Organization is the one true religion.

So then what is faith? And what does it mean to have faith in yourself if there is no absolute certainty in who you are. Is faith in yourself different or have different qualifications than religious faith? Yes, I have read several dictionary definitions but in my head it still points to being absolutely certain of something. Except one definition said ‘belief with spiritual apprehension’… whatever that means.

Am I just completely off course and confused? Or am I overthinking things? Am I even making sense to anyone else?

Analogies and metaphors are very welcome also .

 

[Friday]

Am I just completely off course and confused? Or am I overthinking things? Am I even making sense to anyone else?

Absolutely making sense.

Neither the content nor issues speak to my trauma/ my life/ myself, but I cannot even begin to count the number of other similar kinds of things that have. Either overtly, or subtly. Fictitious or NonFiction (but also influenced by an observer, and the way they see things I’ve lived, things I’ve done, choices I’ve made, triumphs/regrets, etc.).

When I find those echoes or shouts? LISTENING to them has served me sooooo well. I can’t always turn the key in the lock, but it still lets me see that there’s a piece, there, that is deeply meaningful to me, that’s shaping me, that is coloring my reality. For good, or ill, or neither/both (ie it’s complicated).

 

[scout86]

I haven't got time right now to watch the whole documentary. I watched the first few minutes and I'm absolutely going to watch the whole thing. It looks really interesting.

"Faith". I suppose it can have layers of complexity. Here's how I think about it, at a very basic level. I've worked with horses my whole adult life. A good part of that time, training them. I have a good friend that I've known over 30 years. I have faith in him. If he tells me, "Don't worry, I've got him." I;ll step up on the horse, or whatever else my part in the process might be, because I trust that he'll be there and do his level best to make sure I don't get hurt or killed. And his level best is very good. I have faith in him, to my way of thinking. At the same time, I know things might blow up beyond his control and we might have a wreck. I'm willing to accept the risk and maybe that's part of faith too.

It's my personal opinion that all human faiths are an attempt to comprehend "God", but that's a bit like blind folk describing an elephant. What you perceive depends on which part of the critter you're touching at the time. What I watch out for and avoid is the kind of "faith" that says it has all the answers and everyone else is wrong and if YOU don't agree you're WRONG too. Most of them go on to say you're going to be punished for all, or part of eternity. I guess I have "faith" that they're wrong about that. It's my thought that God must like both questions and people who ask them because there are so many of them. If we are the creations of a Creator.......well, we wonder about a lot of stuff and ask a lot of questions. Surely that must be ok.

As far as having faith in myself goes, I try to apply the same "This might go totally sideways but I know you gave it your best shot, you're forgiven in advance for not being perfect." approach I use with my friend. I also try to be accurately aware of my own limitations. "Faith" involves knowledge, experience, and trust. At least that's the way I see it.

It's a powerful thing though, and people know that. Bad people, in some cases. And they know they can use it, and they do. "God", the way I visualize God, is aware of that too. I don't see any reason that God would be troubled by questioning. And human faith that can't handle some questions is probably something best avoided. (Again, just my opinion.)

 

[Rose White]

Yes, I have read several dictionary definitions but in my head it still points to being absolutely certain of something.

Do you have any other words for being absolutely certain of something?

Sometimes I like to think about quantum physics when I feel certain because it seems to be based on uncertainty—can help me shift my thinking. But in some ways science is like a religion too, which brings me back to square one.

 

[Shaylee]

Absolutely making sense.

Thank you! I was feeling very muddied in the brain.

Neither the content nor issues speak to my trauma/ my life/ myself, but I cannot even begin to count the number of other similar kinds of things that have.

it isn’t so much about the content but disentangling my word associations by getting other’s perceptions/opinions/experiences. I have found in the past (waaaaay before therapy) it sometimes is the only way for me tooo…crack the egg open?

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At the same time, I know things might blow up beyond his control and we might have a wreck. I'm willing to accept the risk and maybe that's part of faith too.

Huh, ok… so kind of, simplistically, everytime you get in the passenger seat of a car you trust the person driving won’t wreck?… so is trust the same as faith in your opinion?

"Faith" involves knowledge, experience, and trust.

ok, sorta of along my previous question… but are they more synonymous or actually different things? (Yes, I know it’s your opinion which is what I want )

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Do you have any other words for being absolutely certain of something?

Good question. I know of several JW phrases/words that do but I am not sure of any outside of that… Haven’t actually thought about that… Even words like Scout used, trust, experience or knowledge, all mean or have some level of certainty associated with them. If having faith in one’s self means trusting myself…mmmm no, I cannot say I do, too worried I will say/do the wrong thing in my every situation. Even writing here, every time makes me jittery that I will piss someone else off. Another example is don’t trust my thoughts since I learned about passive SI. I haven’t gotten near a point of stopping those thoughts so I don’t have “faith” in myself that I can ever stop them since I can’t remember a time I did have those thoughts. But if faith is “belief with proof “ kind of a thing… how does work? What does that look/sound like? I truly don’t know if. In my mind I can’t have faith if I don’t KNOW.

which brings me back to square one.

I had to laugh because I have felt like I am going in circles for months now

 

[Aprilshowers]

I'm going to keep everyone here WAY happy and stay out of this discussion of "what" faith is, but can I pose another aspect of it? What about someone who "lives" their faith? And no, I'm not referring to me, although I do have someone in mind. I think faith in action - alive - instead of an inanimate "what" changes the dynamic.

 

[Rose White]

think faith in action - alive - instead of an inanimate "what" changes the dynamic.

Idk, still makes me ask, “Wut?”

 

[Weemie]

I'm not sure if this is relative to what you're talking about but for me, because I am a religious person who was raised by an atheist, I have a lot of sympathy for atheism and apostasy.

I view my religion as a completely and totally personal thing that isn't anyone's business but mine, and no one else's beliefs are my business. I don't need to convince anyone, because I have no proof and I will never have proof.

It kind of comes down to all the stuff we believe that doesn't have proof. Like, if your friend says "I'm so sad, my dog died." They aren't proving it to you in that moment, but you take it on good faith that they're being honest. We take a lot of things on faith throughout the day, as requiring proof for everything would get exhausting.

My religious beliefs I just suppose take it a step further where I have evidence that's good enough for me, but I don't have proof. Evidence and proof are different. I have evidence of my own personal experiences that I can't prove are legitimate.

So with that in mind we shouldn't be forcing other people to live like us, or making laws about it, or interfering with other people's lives.

 

[Shaylee]

I'm going to keep everyone here WAY happy and stay out of this discussion of "what" faith is, but can I pose another aspect of it? What about someone who "lives" their faith? And no, I'm not referring to me, although I do have someone in mind. I think faith in action - alive - instead of an inanimate "what" changes the dynamic.

I would need an example, analogy or metaphor, something to help me understand what your meaning. And I am not going to freak out over anything you say if you are just stating your own thoughts . That is what I want after all. I enjoy diversity.

It kind of comes down to all the stuff we believe that doesn't have proof.

Evidence and proof are different.

Oh? Huh. Interesting. I haven’t thought about that… would you mind elaborating please ?

In my mind they are synonymous. If I have evidence of something then I also have proof. Providing evidence in court to me is providing proof. Etc.

So with that in mind we shouldn't be forcing other people to live like us, or making laws about it, or interfering with other people's lives.

A-FRIGGIN-MEN!
Along those lines I was absolutely fascinated in that documentary how a vote was taken in the church about becoming a “Sanctuary Church”, not something the Reverend said ‘ok we are this now and you better like it”. Just wow . They all talked, provided opinions, asked questions, looked at the pros and cons… yeah… mind blowing to me.


Speaking of more words… so is faith the same as belief? In my mind it is not.

 

[Weemie]

Providing evidence in court to me is providing proof. Etc.

Well like, eyewitness testimony and personal experiences are acceptable pieces of evidence to submit to court, but these are often not irrefutable proof the way DNA, blood, etc. is. Evidence is all the available information, *proof* means that our conclusions are categorically true beyond doubt.

So your personal experiences are a form of evidence that comprise your general beliefs. A majority of these are *not* proven, they're just assumed to be true. Such as having conversations with people where you take them at face value, etc.

I can't prove my experiences with the evidence I have (my memories, my senses). I can only say that my experiences are sufficient enough evidence for me to draw a personal conclusion and call it a day.

 

[scout86]

Evidence is all the available information, *proof* means that our conclusions are categorically true beyond doubt.

And "faith" is what let's you believe it really IS all the available evidence and that it's been accurately and honestly gathered and produced.

so is trust the same as faith in your opinion?

Not exactly, but kind of. (Probably not to helpful. Sorry!) Kind of like "indigo" and "blue" are similar but not identical. I think "trust" is a part of faith. So is "belief". The problem with synonyms in dictionaries is it's hard to reflect all the nuances of words. Besides that, I think maybe we all have our own, individual feelings about what words mean. I think that's ok, even if it makes things a bit complicated.

"Faith in action". I suppose this means different thing to different people too. My version, using Christianity as an example. Jesus told a story about "the good Samaritan". A person who takes the time to help someone they don't know, with no thought of benefit to themselves, is living that part of the Christian faith. Obviously, you don't have to be Christian to value helping a stranger. People who do that most likely do it because they believe it's the right thing to do. I guess you could say they "have faith" that it's the right thing to do. Where ever that idea comes from. I guess I tend to think "faith" has a more spiritual aspect, maybe?

There are churches out there that seem to require a kind of blind, unquestioning, "because I said so" kind of faith. I guess that would be faith too, if a person can manage it. Personally, I don't think a divine being worth it's salt is going to require stupidity. And I don't think it would feel threatened by questioning either. (JMO. I know there are plenty of people who disagree with me, although I don't know that we'd find any around here.)

I truly don’t know if. In my mind I can’t have faith if I don’t KNOW.

Pick that apart a little. What is it you're trying to "know"? Going back to my example with my friend. I don't KNOW that he won't let me get hurt. I BELIEVE he won't let me get hurt. What I KNOW, is that he cares about my welfare, he's extremely competent at what we're doing, he'd feel really bad if I DID get hurt. But I also KNOW that things could go sideways & I could get hurt. So, I don't exactly have faith that things will go well and I won't get hurt. I have faith in his ability and good will. But the actual outcome isn't something I KNOW. Faith, the way I see it, kind of takes you one step beyond what you know absolutely for sure.

 

[Rose White]

I don’t have the focus to read through everything here but it got me thinking about the connection/relationship between belief/faith/truth. I will try to return when I have the focus.

Also the connection with validation.