Faith/ Hypocrisy/ And Faith

[freakofnurture]

Not angry, just passionate about views.

I hold people in high regard who are able to tell the difference :D

Here's my question: do you believe in any sort of magic?

I believe in the fool-the-viewer kind of magic and mistaking coincidences for paranormal events. I do not think that any genuine paranormal phenomena have been demonstrated to exist, yet.

 

[just me here]

And you know why I love science so much? Because in science there are right and wrong answers, and you get to know which answers are definitely wrong, which answers are right to which degree of certainty and which answers are yet to be tested for correctness. Science makes you less susceptible to belief by training your ability to bear the 'we're working on it'-answers.

I am going to pick on one point of contention here, a fine line I admit. In GOOD science, ALL answers are yet to be tested for correctness. Whenever I hear someone say they are quoting a proven fact, I have to just bight my tongue and trudge on. There should never be an end to our curiosity and willingness to look for the exceptions to our accepted facts. We should never limit our thinking to "commonly held" truths. So many breakthroughs and great discoveries have been realised because some free thinking person wasn't limited by the accepted standards or found an exception and all the nuggets that lay beyond that door once it had been opened.

Other than that, carry on my friend. I have enjoyed the posts and the ideas you are presenting.

 

[Mercy]

Yes, I really agree. Some tiny subatomic particles were found a decade or so ago. The scientists were out of names so they called them truth and beauty.

 

[freakofnurture]

In GOOD science, ALL answers are yet to be tested for correctness.

Post-modernist?

So many breakthroughs and great discoveries have been realised because some free thinking person wasn't limited by the accepted standards

That's a common misconception about science, and I blame science documentaries and modern science journalism. They totally ruin the public's idea about how science works. Excuse the following verbosity; I can't help it.

Science only offers you a high profile career (and satisfaction) when you manage to create, revolutionize, or at least advance and deepen a field of study. So, it's not a single 'free' thinker in an army of fosslised traditionalists, it's one of thousands of 'free' thinkers. But history only remembers the one who got lucky and dug in a spot where there was a vast amount of new knowledge and - moreso - understanding to unearth, using the tools available at that time. Or the one who published their paper first.

The second point is that claims which step outside of the general scientific consensus are extraordinary claims and therefore demand extraordinary evidence to be considered. To the general public this might seem like harsh traditionalism, but that perception couldn't be more distorted. It's a tactical conservatism that serves to keep the foundation on which new hypothesis are built as proven and likely as possible. Science always treads on unknown territory and you don't want to wade out into a swamp accidentally, just because some lone 'freethinking' idiot pointed into that direction. If you want science to consider a new direction, deliver good, clean evidence to show that there actually might be some stable ground ahead. If there is something there, it will be demonstrated. Until then, science merely lifts an eyebrow at you, and rightfully so.

Consider Einstein, the icon of sciene. Relativity blew minds, yet it was accepted without a fight because the math was clean and there were a lot of ways to test its predictions. Relativity is still surviving tests, it's very explanatory, useful for the development of tons of new tools, it opened up new fields of research... and the rest is history. The same with Darwin. Evolution itself was by no means a new idea at his time, so his explanatory model - natural selection - was accepted with a midly annoyed "Of course! It's so obvious..." by his colleagues. Then when Gregor Mendel found a mechanism for the inheritability of traits, Biology had a giant party that's still going on. Evolution makes sense of and connects everything in all fields of biology, it is extremely testable, is still surviving tests in every field of biological study, and it led to the development of tens of thousands of tons of new tools. While hearing of Darwin a lot, though, you rarely hear about a collegue of his, by the name of Watson. Watson got the idea of selection at roughly the same time as Darwin - they even shared some of their work - but Darwin was the first to publish, so the glory sticks to his name and Watson rots unglorified.

In conclusion: Science has no problem with progess; the whole purpose of science is progress. If we knew everything, science would stop.

Concerning facts - they exist and you can know them. It's just that people don't know what that word means - or the word 'theory', for that matter - and throw it around like it's getting out of style or something. Annoying to no end.

Some tiny subatomic particles were found a decade or so ago. The scientists were out of names so they called them truth and beauty.

I love it when physicists get creative. Like with the quarks. Up, down, stange, charm, top, bottom, and they all have flavours and colour forces. Now you only need a unicorn. Oh, wait, the Higg's Boson :D

Btw, are those two particles you mention bosons or fermions? I looked all over but I couldn't find anything about them.

 

[Tinyflame]

I've been a Science Major all my life; technically there's only Hypothetical Hypotheses that must be followed by 'Alternative Explanations' to question any conclusion reached- no matter how 'certain' it may appear.

I've also heard it said, that for some the more that is discovered the more they believe it 'proves' an absence of 'God' or a higher being; for others the more that is discovered the more it proves to them how only a Higher Being could have created and maintain such.

But what I find odd- is that really the end result is the same. Atheists do not believe anything can be 'left' to a God that doesn't exist, to accomplish- including actively helping others, so they are often very pro-active and wonderful, really sincere people, motivated to help others concretely. On the other hand, Christians, (for example), believe they have to do what Jesus/ God would do on Earth, following His example. So ultimately, as long as (anyone) is concerned for others they're (all) accomplishing the same thing, or trying to.
I see more similarities than differences.

And we all usually fall short of the mark, at times. At least, I know I certainly do.

I believe if God exists He appreciates passionate view points and hard questions; what is worse is to be lukewarm and indifferent. JMHO, of course.

Though I believe in God, I've also heard it said Atheists are very correct, because often the 'God' who is portrayed by people (+/ or their actions) is nothing like God really is, at all. So really, if that's correct, in that respect they are very correct, no matter what beliefs one subscribes to.

(JMHO for all of it, of course).

They say 'there's a God-shaped hole' in everyone's heart only (that) can fill. I think one thing for certain, ptsd leaves lots of heart holes- we can all empathize with each other in that respect. In many ways I don't think it's left me with a single thing not either taken, compromised or impacted, in some way.

 

[Tinyflame]

I wonder about something too, as to whether God's 'there' or not- I can feel alone 1-to-1 or in a crowded room full of people, the 'cause' lays with me - why should it be any different with 'God' as with people?

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

Starting to have this problem more, its seen as a "weakness" in my religion, and if you pray and everything...you will be fine no matter what is wrong with you. I said that bluntly and generalize but thats the root of it.
I have started doing more research about it...

Sometimes its hard for me to believe that lets say you are Bipolar, you have a manic episode and kill yourself. Most religions suicide is a sure ticket to hell. But it my mind I am thinking...but they are unstable? They can't help it? But then as said above...prayer is the cure...

So I am lost...

 

[Tinyflame]

I think a 'sure ticket to hell' is people's judgment- God knows any extenuating circumstances/ realities.

I think God made (also) good meds, shrinks, people etc.

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

I really hope you are right- though what I have found so far is..you kill yourself you are sinning. You are suffering now, because of your bad deeds.

Its made me very depressed now...I actually feel like crying. I was already having terrible mood swings, this as just made it worse.

 

[Tinyflame]

Its made me very depressed now...I actually feel like crying. I was already having terrible mood swings, this as just made it worse.

I think this is the point- God doesn't blame anyone for suffering, or physical or mental anguish. It can be like, a breakdown in one's emotional immune system, as they say.

My mom used to say that God knows when someone is too sensitive for this world.

Or like, it is the response to one's clothes are on fire and you throw yourself out a window (because of it).

If you want, google ronrolheiser and look up his 'writings on suicide'. Apart from anything 'spiritual' or not, he seems to have a very good grasp.

The stigma alone of suicide really affects the understanding of it (and our own self-blame/ disgust etc, too), I think. But like he says, (for the most part) people don't 'take' their life as much as it's oftentimes as involuntarily taken from them, just as in cancer or heart disease.

But I know, ya, it's really hard to have 'hope' (or self-forgiveness).

 

[Tinyflame]

What I found Ayesha helps me to remember also (when I can) is that, borrowing someone else's words as regards ptsd:
"Suicide is not a treatment option".

And also kindness from others when I am not able to be kind like that to myself.
Or understanding. -I'm not sure what it is.

Maybe the temptation is in the ~giving up- you haven't 'done' anything wrong to have thoughts of it plague you.
Maybe if you feel it's inevitable then it's a sign you have to ask for help (I know that's very hard when 'we' feel like we have no worth/ are a bother/ are 'damaged').

((((Hugs))))

 

[Mercy]

Ayesha,
I wonder, are you in your annual days of fasting?
A big change in diet, eating times, and sleep timing can really affect ones thinking.
I like the phrase: "You don't have to believe every thought you think."