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Dear people, even if the molester is an absolute stranger, a child can't quite "flee" from and definitely can't "fight" a big grown man! I was molested by a stranger on the top of an empty apartment building at 11 years of age - I had nowhere to flee, should I have fought him???
Nadege, I agree , I think there can be a difference between the way a child reacts to an adult. I didn't flee, or fight when being molested as an 8yr old by a grown man twice my size. I froze and dissociated to cope as this abuse went on for over 3 years.
But I did try to fight and flee as a teenager at 17 when having much worse abuse, and I got hurt more. I gave up fighting, as I believed I would not live and would end up dead. So then severe dissociation kicked in, leading to amnesia.
Every reaction to these critical incidents are normal. No-one should feel guilty or ashamed of how they 'survived' the trauma(s).
But I did try to fight and flee as a teenager at 17 when having much worse abuse, and I got hurt more. I gave up fighting, as I believed I would not live and would end up dead. So then severe dissociation kicked in, leading to amnesia.
Every reaction to these critical incidents are normal. No-one should feel guilty or ashamed of how they 'survived' the trauma(s).
If responses are involuntary, why would you think anyone is suggesting you should have?
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Anna
I think you react differently to physical and sexual assaults. I froze when I was sexually assaulted which was a shock to me as I was trained in martial arts. If anyone tried to physically attack me I would automatically block their blows with my arm. If a ball comes to close my arm goes out and catches it. I pulled my son back from running out in front of a bus automatically. However, when I was sexually assaulted I froze. Maybe as the others said above it is the lizard brain wiring, if I had fought back maybe I would not be sitting here now as my attacker would have just killed me? My experience was my attacker used their body weight to pin me down and I could not get away. Totally horrible experience, was worse than any physical fighting I have ever done. When I fight physically I get the adrenaline rush, with this freezing, it is like you become calmer and are paralysed, it was horrifying.
SweetPeaandSunBird
Platinum Member
I completely agree with your responses (Anna, Nadesge, Shellbell, AS1975, ...).
Being molested by family types and strangers (all adult perps), I too froze. Then, as an adult I froze during an assault.
There is really no one response, just as there is no one type of perpetrator, just as there is no one type of survivor. That's why I love this forum -- the complexity of it all is so apparent.
Being molested by family types and strangers (all adult perps), I too froze. Then, as an adult I froze during an assault.
There is really no one response, just as there is no one type of perpetrator, just as there is no one type of survivor. That's why I love this forum -- the complexity of it all is so apparent.
piratelady
VIP Member
I agree with a lot of what has been said. When I was sexually assaulted, I froze. For a long time I felt guilty for not fighting back, but the more I think about it, my instincts to freeze were correct. Had I fought back, it is likely I would have been hurt much worse than I was.
I tried to find some information about this online. Admittedly I have not read the entire publication yet, but i thought this excerpt was helpful. The entire article can be located here:
[DLMURL="http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous%20series/proceedings/1-27/~/media/publications/proceedings/20/galliano.pdf"]http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous series/proceedings/1-27/~/media/publications/proceedings/20/galliano.pdf[/DLMURL]
That is only one excerpt, as I have read more, there is some interesting information, and food for thought. I would suggest reading it. :)
I tried to find some information about this online. Admittedly I have not read the entire publication yet, but i thought this excerpt was helpful. The entire article can be located here:
[DLMURL="http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous%20series/proceedings/1-27/~/media/publications/proceedings/20/galliano.pdf"]http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous series/proceedings/1-27/~/media/publications/proceedings/20/galliano.pdf[/DLMURL]
That is only one excerpt, as I have read more, there is some interesting information, and food for thought. I would suggest reading it. :)
The Albatross
VIP Member
I've had multiple traumas and during them had all three ... fight, flight, and freeze. Fight tends to be limited to my exhusband as his abuse became more violent and death threats increased. Flight and freeze didn't work anymore. I had a sponsor once that described me as a rabbit and he as a predator. A rabbit is by nature predominately a timid thing. It will freeze or try to flee... but if cornered, under threat of being ripped apart and death... it's last act is to turn and fight for all it's worth.
Freeze was alot of my predominant survival instinct for my bio familial abuse and marital physical, verbal, and sexual abuse until my abusers began to threaten to kill me or would choke me to unconsciousness several times with more force... until I literally thought I was going to die.
I successfully too, used flight... as a child from a stranger who attempted to kidnap me.
Like Shell Bell, I have also benefited from disassociative type episodes which seem to be linked to disassociating from physical pain. And when in crisis, another affect I recognized is/was that in about half of the traumas, things either happen in "slow motion" or I "speed up" (presumably from the jolt of adreneline).
I did find that I was not "consciously choosing" the responses... that they were subconscious. For this reason, I tend more to focus on the fact that I survived the traumas, though some were not in the way I would have liked them to be.
I also did indeed find, Anna... like your therapist said... that my response(s) were situationally or relationally different depending of the nature of the abuse or assault.
Good topic!
Freeze was alot of my predominant survival instinct for my bio familial abuse and marital physical, verbal, and sexual abuse until my abusers began to threaten to kill me or would choke me to unconsciousness several times with more force... until I literally thought I was going to die.
I successfully too, used flight... as a child from a stranger who attempted to kidnap me.
Like Shell Bell, I have also benefited from disassociative type episodes which seem to be linked to disassociating from physical pain. And when in crisis, another affect I recognized is/was that in about half of the traumas, things either happen in "slow motion" or I "speed up" (presumably from the jolt of adreneline).
I did find that I was not "consciously choosing" the responses... that they were subconscious. For this reason, I tend more to focus on the fact that I survived the traumas, though some were not in the way I would have liked them to be.
I also did indeed find, Anna... like your therapist said... that my response(s) were situationally or relationally different depending of the nature of the abuse or assault.
Good topic!
The Albatross
VIP Member
Side note on the reread. I found after my first marriage, that my "fight" instinctual response was overactive. Doubtless because of the many traumas and post life threatening situations... I would subconsciously attempt "flee" after protesting or trying to conversationally evade a crisis. I would skip completely over freeze in my second marriage and go straight for "fight".
The repeated domestic abuse to near death... became ingrained and my perception "tilted". Somehow, to my horror, I found that I had begun a perception that almost every relational arguement, crisis, or threat was "a matter of life and death." I, ironically left my exhusband when I began to hit him first. I had to go to counseling initially to restore the hyperactive instinct, relearn communication techniques, learn to pause and tools to use during emotional charged issues in my second marriage... to avoid graduating to a physical abuser. I was devistated with shame as this tendency in myself didn't appear until my 7th year of marriage. It seemed to "come out of nowhere". I had to track it back and have been successful at restoring a tolerance for highly emotional charged domestic conflicts.
My propensity for numbing out or isolating with substance abuse (alcohol) increased in my second marriage - because of the grief, guilt, remorse, shame and blame. I was convinced I had turned into exactly what I didn't want, the spitting image of my abusive father (without the sexual aspects). I was afraid of the fight instinct, because of my own behavior with my exhusband just before I sucessfully terminated the relationship and severed all ties. I was afraid of who I had become. If that makes any sense.
I guess the caution would be... what I'm trying to spit out here... is that for me, it was primarily the "fight" instincutal aspect that drove me into agoraphobia and substance abuse behaviors out of self loathing. Until I had the tools to self examine, deal with it and restore a sense of balance. It did happen, but it was an unintended byproduct of being so abused, near death many times... that my brain began to view everything that was a conflict as a "life or death" threat.
The repeated domestic abuse to near death... became ingrained and my perception "tilted". Somehow, to my horror, I found that I had begun a perception that almost every relational arguement, crisis, or threat was "a matter of life and death." I, ironically left my exhusband when I began to hit him first. I had to go to counseling initially to restore the hyperactive instinct, relearn communication techniques, learn to pause and tools to use during emotional charged issues in my second marriage... to avoid graduating to a physical abuser. I was devistated with shame as this tendency in myself didn't appear until my 7th year of marriage. It seemed to "come out of nowhere". I had to track it back and have been successful at restoring a tolerance for highly emotional charged domestic conflicts.
My propensity for numbing out or isolating with substance abuse (alcohol) increased in my second marriage - because of the grief, guilt, remorse, shame and blame. I was convinced I had turned into exactly what I didn't want, the spitting image of my abusive father (without the sexual aspects). I was afraid of the fight instinct, because of my own behavior with my exhusband just before I sucessfully terminated the relationship and severed all ties. I was afraid of who I had become. If that makes any sense.
I guess the caution would be... what I'm trying to spit out here... is that for me, it was primarily the "fight" instincutal aspect that drove me into agoraphobia and substance abuse behaviors out of self loathing. Until I had the tools to self examine, deal with it and restore a sense of balance. It did happen, but it was an unintended byproduct of being so abused, near death many times... that my brain began to view everything that was a conflict as a "life or death" threat.
For anyone that has not read it I would recommend Pete Walker's "The four F's"
http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm if complex or childhood trauma is relevant. I thought it was very interesting anyway.
I also imagine that growing up in an environment where fight was never allowed or accepted can have a big influence on ones instinctual reactions when we come across trauma. The same goes for being brought up not allowed either fight or freeze. Freeze is a normal response when no other coping option is thought to be possible.
I suspect that age, the persons personality and the circumstances all play a role.
http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm if complex or childhood trauma is relevant. I thought it was very interesting anyway.
I also imagine that growing up in an environment where fight was never allowed or accepted can have a big influence on ones instinctual reactions when we come across trauma. The same goes for being brought up not allowed either fight or freeze. Freeze is a normal response when no other coping option is thought to be possible.
I suspect that age, the persons personality and the circumstances all play a role.
The Albatross
VIP Member
Thanks Abstract. Fawn I need to read up on... for some reason I don't think that one was available to me. At least not that I can recall.
I don't think freezing is anything to do with the nature of the assault in itself (sexual or non-sexual). It's whether our instincts tell us there's a chance if we run or fight, or that those options would put is in more harm/danger.
For that reason, it would make sense that children will often freeze. My guess is that in the case of sexual violence against adults, what our animal instincts prioritise is to avoid death or life-threatening injury. Therefore, terrible as sexual assault is, the survival instinct will maximise our chances of staying alive above anything else. So we will often freeze. That would happen with non-sexual violence too, like a mugging or beating, if our instincts judged freezing to be safer than the alternatives.
My experience of fight/flight/freeze is that they're overwhelming and there's no conscious choice at all. They're pure, instinctive, animal reactions. When I was attacked (sexual violence) as an adult, I did at first hit out and try to run. When that failed, I froze. Not one of those reactions was a decision, or even a thought. I just did them. I didn't know until a few years ago about the reptilian brain taking over, but that made complete sense when I heard it.
For that reason, it would make sense that children will often freeze. My guess is that in the case of sexual violence against adults, what our animal instincts prioritise is to avoid death or life-threatening injury. Therefore, terrible as sexual assault is, the survival instinct will maximise our chances of staying alive above anything else. So we will often freeze. That would happen with non-sexual violence too, like a mugging or beating, if our instincts judged freezing to be safer than the alternatives.
My experience of fight/flight/freeze is that they're overwhelming and there's no conscious choice at all. They're pure, instinctive, animal reactions. When I was attacked (sexual violence) as an adult, I did at first hit out and try to run. When that failed, I froze. Not one of those reactions was a decision, or even a thought. I just did them. I didn't know until a few years ago about the reptilian brain taking over, but that made complete sense when I heard it.
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