Following Orders

[Jimmy1]

During one of my overseas deployments I was following orders. It was a simple order. 'Do not let the vehicle in front get further than 50 m away from you'. We were in a convoy protecting someone.
In the course of this I drove over the top of a person indigenous to the area. For years I carried the guilt. I should have stopped and waited. But then I could have put others lives at risk. Did I do the right thing. Was it out of my control??

At other times I have sent soldiers on missions which could have put their lives at risk. But the mission had to get done and if I had not have done it, I would have been disobeying orders.

The next point links to 'Knowing about PTSD before you deployed'.
During the latter part of my career, I sent many soldiers overseas on operations and I know that a lot of them came home all screwed in the head. Now, I knowingly knew about PTSD prior to deploying them.
Am I guilty??? No.
If we were to tell every soldier in the world that they could be affected by PTSD or they could die, would they go. Most of them yes.

Thoughts anyone, or am I just rambling.

Jimmy

 

[track108]

Being in the military our actions are supposed to have the morality factor taken out of them, nothing is supposed to be wrong because our orders are to do our orders, but then we are humans and we do have our morals.
They can take the morality out of orders but they cant take the morals out of man

 

[Jimmy1]

I agree mate, but when you think about how we were brought up as children. I know a lot or my morals and beliefs wee shattered after seeing what I have seen in the world. But I know where your coming from.
We have all taken orders we don't think are right.

 

[BV101]

Thats an interesting issue you've got yourself there Jimmy. I think that is part of why we have these mental problems. facing upto the fact that stuff happens thats not great and often you get option A (thats not good) and option B (and thats not good either. I spend some (well probably a lot actually) time going over things applying lots of "what ifs" and it always ends up a bit shit.
I think the issue is good people do bad things sometimes and that you aren't god. You cannot do everything to keep people around safe. See, too much thinking. Not good for me at all!

 

[Jimmy1]

Yes, I think we are all guilty of thinking. Wouldn't it be nice to have a pair of headphones to or something like that, that block out thoughts.

 

[Nate1]

Jimmy,
You have brang up a good question that I think that we all think about most of the day. What if I did things different? What if I would have turned my back on my Army, Unit, Comrades and not gone overseas and did my job?
before my second tour to the sand box I had that choice, I remember sitting on it for a week and all I could think about "if I don't go someone else will have to take my place and they could get hurt or die and that will be on me." I don't think most of us want to deploy but we do it for the guy standing next to us.
You talk about taking orders we all do it or had to do it, that is part of being a soldier. Some of the things we were ordered to do don't fit the person we are but they were orders so we did them. It doesn't matter what rank you are there is always some one higher than you to give orders and as a good soldier you fallow them knowing that bad things could happen. And yes some of those orders have left us with the "what ifs?".

Nate

 

[No Folded Hands]

I was in the service during the odd era of being required to question your orders. That is, one of the topics covered in training was that it was our responsibility to evaluate all orders, and to not follow those that were invalid. Considering that we could, and likely would, be courtmartialed for not following an order some oficer decided after the fact had actually been valid, and could also be court martialed for following one some officer decided after the fact was not valid, this surely opened a bag of worms. Quite frankly because of this I never gave any of my people a direct order (except a couple of times in a joking manner when I was sure they knew it was meant in a humorous fashion). I figured it would be easier on them --having only had indirect orders-- if some yahoo decided later they should have questioned something I told them. I, on the other hand, found myself sweating out defying a superior officer's order twice. I am lucky that I firmly believe now that I did the right thing both times though when they happened thoughts of Leavenworth danced through my head in accompaniment. A bit different from what y'all have related.

 

[Dan]

That is one of the biggest issues for me. "What if" I had said or done something differently? Well, in my case I know the outcome wouldn't have been any different. The guy who made the decision, didn't make a habit of listening to me, and would have made the same decision anyway. I keep telling myself that I could have said it louder, or said it to someone he did listen to. It's been the hardest thing for me, just accepting that nothing I could have said or done, while following orders, would have changed anything. I did end up telling that LTC that he was an incompetent f*ck chasing the chicken for his chest, or something to that effect.

Following orders without question is pounded into our heads constantly, from boot camp to the mountains of Afghanistan or the deserts of Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter. It can be both a blessing and a curse, depending on who is issuing the orders. Sometimes you don't get to pick your leaders, or even your battles, but you always get to pick your morals. You did what you had to do to survive. Your actions very well could have saved the lives of everyone else behind you. Slowing down meant creating an easier target. You didn't separate the convoy and you didn't disobey orders. There is no way that the person you hit didn't see the convoy and know how they work. I don't know how it was there and then, but we didn't stop for anyone. Stopping meant an ambush, and we didn't stop unless we were prepared for one.

Yes it is sad that an innocent person was killed, but you not slowing down or stopping ensured that the rest of the convoy wouldn't become sitting ducks. That being said, it's perfectly normal to be a little messed up about it. Your own imperfections are what let you know you're still human. I guess that's just my take on it, and it may be wrong, I don't know. I'm at the end of what's been a very long day and my brain is only firing on about one cylinder at the moment. Sorry for the ramble.

 

[abnvet]

IMO our minds are our worst enemies. I think back saying that I can't live with myself because of the things that I did. Will society accept me (community, church, family). But damn, if I hadn't done it then there is the chance that I would have died. Its the old "Kill or be Killed" thing. It was a big thing once I returned to the states and went to church. I felt as if hundreds of eyes were on me. The wife (EX-wife now) didn't help with things. She blamed my ptsd, nightmares, sleepwalking for the pretense for the divorce. I hit the bottle for some time and totally took the blame. Not to say all is good now. But I do have an understanding wife and seek counseling when in a bad place......

 

[Wagon]

My 2 Pfennig.

Joining or being conscripted into the military and having all your constitutional and basic rights taken from us does not make anyone less of a human being. Add to that being programmed to follow orders even to your detriment, this also does not detract from the human element of our being. Iy unfortunately does create double jeapordy with respects to your morals and ideals. All war depends on it.

Most people seem to leave all this behind. Unfortunately for us, thenh is n is now and now is then. Somewhat inseperable. Perhaps we are more human than the others.

Have I just said anything........Waffling on a Friday night.

Wagon

 

[Barberian]

What if? What if the person who got in front of your vehicle was a terrorist on his divine suicidal mission to stop part of the convoy for an ambush? How many of your mates could have died if you DID stop? War is hell, war is not perfect. We do all that we can to prevent civilian injuries and deaths. Sometimes shit just happens that we have no control over. Modern day warfare by the NATO countries has the lowest civilian casualty rate in the history of human kinds warfare. Cut yourself a break, you were following orders, ensuring the safey of your mates. One life vs how many in your convoy?

Just my 2 copper.

 

[Jimmy1]

I know we join the military to serve our country and at the end of our basic training we would not hesitate to pull the trigger. It would be 'Kill or be Killed'. I understand that.

But you ask any guy on here and I am sure you agree that actually pulling the trigger or killing someone any other way whether it was your life or theirs is very hard.

Anyone who gets satisfaction out of killing someone needs some serious help.

The problem we all face is that we were brought up with morals, well most of us were anyway. And if you had any sort of religion, 'Thou shalt not kill' was told to you. Killing someone that was about to kill you, so be it. But when you hear stories of people taking pot shots at civilians and executing unarmed people, then they are as bad as each other.

The military is a way of life which I have not escaped yet and I have been out for 5 years. I was not ready to leave it, that is half my problem. They taught me the best way to kill. But in the end, the person I ran over was a non-combatant. Yes I was following orders, and yes if I had of stopped we would have been mobbed and probably killed, but it does not make it any easier to swallow.