Agita Kaput

Policy Enforcement
Fore giveness

Seems to me that the tense of the actual word has everything to do with the present/future and nothing to do with the past.

It's not post giveness or gaveness.

(And Im not suggesting any unnecessary contact or even thought towards a perp - as noted; this had everything to do with you and nothing to do with them.)


And it seems like everyone talks about forgiveness as a necessary step of healing, but is it really?
I think the idea of forgiving people is so that WE can let go of anger and hate and all the other emotions we hold onto when we are wronged. If we can let all of those things go then it can be titled "forgiveness" and not cause ourselves any more pain by carrying it.

For me? Ya - I hope his life has been a total shitshow and he's been somebody's bitch in prison for the last 30 years
But that's me working thru the concept of what happened.
There is no way I could forgive him. Ever.
Forgiveness is between him and god - not me.


My T and I were talking about forgiveness, specifically regarding my dad. He didn't just abuse me, he abused my brother and mother. He abused animals. I don't know if I can forgive that...Like he once killed a family pet.
Idk if I could forgive that. Considering I would die for my pet if necessary (probably more quickly than some family members or definitely for strangers- I know, I'm sorry but that is the truth, the 1st I wouldn't have to think of but the 2nd I would have to tell myself to do). Idk. I do think it wouldn't help my pet to avenge it, wouldn't help me, and would turn me in to them (or bring out my capacity for it).
And it seems like everyone talks about forgiveness as a necessary step of healing, but is it really?
I don't think so. I think it depends how you define forgiveness. I think that the grief that might be behind the unforgiveness does have to be integrated. It will always be a great sorrow, but healed it will not have the power it has without the healing.

I do always think of the last moment(s) of my life- will I care? Will that be the focus? (It's not so strange when having dealt with SI; and the fragility of life/ no warnings for death , sometimes I think it even before I speak, or choose- like it I die today what is the priority to choose now? So yes, I guess it's weird, lol. 🙄 ) What I mean is, I think (my) focus will be on who is living, or what I didn't do. I do think you can try very hard, and some things will still never be resolved til the other side, if there is one. And I think, whether there is another chapter or not, that is ok.

Hugs to you @Muttly . And I am very sorry for the devastation his actions caused to those he should have protected, not devastated and terrorized. 😭💔 And to all whose lives and hearts were irrevocably harmed.

Agita Kaput

Policy Enforcement
Considering I would die for my pet if necessary
Forgive me for floating a thought experimant in the face of a very sick man...

Lets say Rover got rabies. Would he still be a dog... let alone your Rover? How would we think about him biting up the kids in the hood?

I guess it comes down to volition and how to think about the "will." I recently Discovered that my mom was sadistic. And did willfully sadistic things. Obviously there's a lot that would go into considering the notion of forgiveness with respect to her, but one thing is this… My only understanding of willfulness is from my pen Frame of reference , my own rather healthy, well normal at least, Personhood. I think that whole cluster of mind brain interactions we call the will may have been very very unlike normal for her.

Edgar the bug comes to mind. would the idea of forgiveness have any meaning with respect to Edgar?


I'm not sure if I follow.. but if Rover couldn't be cured (and a rabid animal will 'cozy up' to get in bite range), he would have to be Euthanized. But I wouldn't blame Rover, but I wouldn't allow him to bite anyone or myself. Ideally I would have him vaccinated before.

I actually apologize before I kill bugs- though not mosquitos and rarely wasps.

Yes I agree, your mom's thoughts and perception of reality, was horrific. 😭

But I guess after the smoke clears, many of us say (or maybe feel), "Now what?" One thing you do deserve is whatever helps and heals you, if it doesn't harm anyone else. You could harm her, but then the cycle continues. Wanting to, however, is perfectly normal if that's how you feel, I think.

The best I can do is hate the actions than the person, and realize Idk what is in their head/ mind/ heart. But in another way, I am fortunate I don't, I have other battles to face I guess.


I know I disappeared from this thread. Life got in the way. I definitely appreciated everyone's replies.

I've decided I am not going to forgive the dad. That actually gives me peace and allows me to let go of some stuff. Forgiveness is too much like condoning what happened. I don't. It was not ok. And for *me* forgiveness has to be earned. Intent matters a lot. It also matters what healing and reparation work you have done. And the dad hasn't. And the brother has done minimal. I do forgive my brother for what happened when we were children. He has expressed regret over that. And he was in the same abusive environment I was. We were children. I don't forgive him for some of the bullshit he has said since we were adults. I don't trust him. That may not be fair. I may have to live with the fact I'm not fair.

For me, forgiveness is a slippery slope. I had forgiveness rammed down my throat. It was part of the abuse cycle. It was expected of me. Demanded of me. I was the nice one. I was the forgiver, caretaker, peacemaker. So I really, really have to examine my motivations when it comes to forgiveness. Am I doing it because I think I have to? Because I think I'm a bad person if I don't? Or is it part of my healing?

Maybe I will eventually forgive my dad. Right now, it's huge to be able to say I don't forgive him and that's ok. I don't forgive him and I'm still a good person. I don't forgive him and I am not being vindictive or manipulative. I don't forgive him and I'm not festering in the past. I don't forgive him and my life is my own. He isn't dictating my actions and feelings. There's a small part of me that wants him to suffer, but mostly I don't care. He can have his life and next life and it can be whatever it is. His life is not mine. I'm free.


I'm against the grain here. Perhaps it is because I am religious where a majority may not be, though my religion (Judaism) does not go about forgiveness in the same way. It's not necessary. No one can prescribe forgiveness. It's a deeply personal process that is 100% about you. But for me it was a necessary part of healing. For me. Because it wasn't just about my forgiving others. It's also about my being able to forgive myself. That's the crucial piece. And it can't really be a one-and-done thing.

I've always had to understand it all. Not just bits and pieces. I remember when my T brought it up the first time he said, have you forgiven them? And I said, well, what's forgiveness? and he gave me a bunch of things that forgiveness isn't. It's not zero accountability. It's not ignoring it or forgetting it or failing to acknowledge its importance. But not a whole lot on what it actually is.

Having been in The Shit for a few years I can say at this point I've narrowed it down quite a lot. Forgiveness isn't about absolving a person of their crimes, or saying to someone that it's all right that they've done what they did. It's about letting go of that anger and resentment and blistering rage that is so caustic to you as well, and so intrusive to your life.

Because of the nature of my experiences I've often thought a lot about the concepts of justice and what it is that perpetrators really deserve. And I think my beliefs these days can be summed up best by the quote, "you can judge a society based on how well they treat their prisoners" by Howard Zinn. It's not about them. It's about us. It's about how we want to conduct ourselves.

Do we punish indiscriminately out of vengeance or do we work on repairing the world (Tikkun Olam)? And the latter? That's really hard. It's not reciprocal. You're choosing to employ acceptance and peace toward a person who would not offer you the same. I guess it's conditional, though. There are some folks who I do believe deserve to die, but it's not because it's a fitting punishment. Some people just can't be trusted with the responsibility of living in society without harming other people.

At the end of the day, forgiveness really isn't about the other person. It isn't. It's about you. That's your process, that's deeply personal and no one can tell you what's right or wrong about it.


Forgiveness in my eyes is more for myself rather than forgiving the others. I have told others that I forgive them knowing it means nothing to them. After all its not about them. I have to work the hardest at self forgiveness. When I have done so it becomes easier for me to forgive others. Forgiveness of others continues when I acknowledge the other humans are such, traumatized humans as well as I am. My goal is to break the cycle of the trauma in my family by treating others as I want to be treated. Maybe they will or won't see my behavior as helpful. At the end of the day their opinions don't matter to me because we are all individuals on this planet.