News Gender identification - when to start the conversation

[ninja]

Granted, I understand that for some there may be an innate discord which has nothing to do with others perceptions. I think it just requires careful and respectful teasing apart for each person. I just don't think we know as much about ourselves as we sometimes believe. With a huge IMO and so much respect.

 

[Ronin]

which is what the schools in my area are pushing for, anyone who doesn't neatly fit in binary definitions has to be segregated & "redefined" :wtf: )

Yeah, that's some A grade bullshit, especially given even that 'binary' is not black and white itself and however many people, there's about as many expressions for the same category of 'gender'. We're not effing mechanical clones.

 

[Deleted member 41765]

@ Ninja w

 

[Sideways]

Seems like an adult problem to me. I have no idea why it’s the school’s job to ‘teach’ gender identity.

Getting rid of bigotry? And things that stand in the way of kids developing their own self concept? Sure. Why do toddlers even need boy toilets and girl toilets!? I’m really not in favour of policies and practices that make people feel lesser because of their concept of their own gender. So getting rid of bigotry? Great.

But actively introducing the concept to kids that gender is something they need to think about? Good grief. Leave the little blighters alone to learn the friggin alphabet in peace.

Physically, the brain doesn’t really develop a solid concept of self (as seperate and independent from the primary caregivers) until teens anyway. So is this something that’s really important to little kids? Or is it something that adults think should he important to little kids?

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I have a transgender grandson, female to male and I accept this completely. He is also nearing eighteen years old and has been a tomboy for all of his life. He prefers to be identified as a he before he goes through the physical process and has a lot of emotional pain right now. I support him one hundred percent and more.

But as for the government or schools being in an assistive position explaining these concepts to a kindergardner, no way. I think that they need to go through all of the developmental stages before they are in a position to choose how they identify.

They have hormonal issues they have to adjust to, the human body is delicate and needs to grow up naturally in my opinion. I would have pitched a fit with any school or government that tried to talk to or support Or even educate My grandson until he came to the age of being a young adult. I am really thinking that teen suicide and that of other transgendered people kill themselves now at a alarming rate as it is. To do this to a very small child adds way too much confusion into their minds and besides being a teenager is when a person tries on and changes identity until they develop a grasp on who they are turning into.

But hey I have always been a naturalist I like the way my grandson developed and fully understand the emotional pain he is in. I do not believe in helping young children to transition because of the hormonal changes to their growing bodies.

I am not a bigot clearly. I just think we need to use our common sense. I would homeschool my kids if this was the way things were going to be. No way in hell would I expose them to that since it is hell growing up in a good home with todays problems for young children. There is way too much confusion. Compound this with bad homes and the mix will be deadly. Let the kids grow up for mercys sake. Okay rant over.

 

[Friday]

Setting -mostly- aside my personal strongly held belief that "The more laws, the less justice" ...

To be honest, what this feels like? Is watching "separate but equal" :banghead: & other forms of legislated nightmares happen, first person.

To pick one -well known- of hundreds of examples: In the US, before segregation, black kids & white kids went to the same schools. But when numbers shifted enough to be a tipping point? For it to actually be "normal" that black kids and white kids went to the same schools? The government had to step in and start laying down how black kids were to be treated. Now, I think this came from a pretty rational place to begin with (largely northern legislation, trying to prevent discrimination as former slaves flooded north, but also equally backed by folks who didn't want black kids in school and saw every chance to codify "how" & "what" they were "allowed" to have & "where" as a step in the "right" direction)... But ...Which very quickly (within about a generation) led to segregated schools (and just about everything else). Because when you start with teaching kids? It really only takes about a generation. And when you codify things into laws? You remove people's indidvual responsibility to think and act according to the dictates of their own conscience. And NONE of us is as stupid as all of us.

You can LOOK to any single group any government has singled out for different treatment over the history of almost forever... And see exactly what will happen next. (The groups they leave alone, people sort out amongst themselves and become fairly normalized parts of society. The groups they think need their "help"? Oy.)

As governments try to contain & direct socio-cultural change? We end up with Jim Crow laws. We end up with reservations. We end up with ghettos. We end up with apartheid. Trying to apply "special" laws to any group of people? Makes me very very nervous.

Apply the same laws to everyone, or don't apply them at all.

As true in the school house as the state house.

 

[anonymous]

I have zero issues with an adult who wants to transition. If a child and their parents decide for the child to transition, so be it. Not my place to tell someone else how to live and what to do with their body and who thy may eventually have sex with when they are a consenting adult.

It is not the job of government either.

I loathe the idea of government having the “conversation” with a child in school about what gender they want to be. At any age. Outside of simply asking male, female, trans, etc, as part of asking for other basic identifying demographics. And just leave it at that.

Children will be supported if they feel a need to transition.

What if the parents disagree and do not want the child to transition? Will the school support the child over the parent? Where and when does the parent’s rights to raise their child in a certain way become over ridden by the school’s policies?

When should the government have the conversation with the child about choices such as this? Outside of enforcing not teasing other children on ANY dress or gender or any choices, I don’t think it’s the role of the government or the school at all. At any age.

And at home, it's as simple as accepting that your little boy prefers the *pink* section of the store, or allowing your child to make unconventional clothing choices.

This is my opinion about how I see this: when a little boy prefers pink, I don’t start thinking they want to be a girl or not a girl. I would not encourage them to explore becoming a girl or disuade them from it either. My definition of what is a boy doesn’t mean that all boys have to look or act certain way, or they must not be a boy. Gender does not have to be so restrictive — and yet that’s kind of what starts happening when government gets involved. They start to standardize EVERYTHING.

This all puts a lot of pressure on kids. I mean, I wore clothing of many types of clothing, explored a lot of thoughts and feelings and orientations as I sorted out myself growing up. I wouldn’t have wanted any school or government enitity to converse with me about it and start putting me in one box or the other.

For the relatively small percent that actually are trans, then yes, use the right pronouns, don’t allow them to be teased to death, and move on. Same for religious choices too. If a girl wants to wear a hijab, same thing. If a boy wants to wear a cross, same thing. Government should not be in the role of encouraging or being against it. They should only make sure these children are not teased or bullied.

Leave government schools out of definitions of self. Instead, work on teaching kids how to read and do math.

 

[Freida]

Big disclaimer....not a parent and not around a lot of kids...and not religious!

Why do I care what bathroom a kid uses or who they love or what color toys they play with? I am missing something in the issue here. Other than bible thumpers who believe in punishing those who are different what is the problem with Joe growing up as Josie or Tonya growing up as Tim? Why are we so obsessed with genitals defining someone's place in society?

I admit I'm a bit concerned with changing their physical body at a very young age, but that is more concern about our medical and psychological knowledge and less about letting them be who they are inside

If little timmy feels better in a dress playing with dolls and little Jenny wants to play with army trucks ...ok. Let's raise them to be good people who help make the world a better place instead of traumatizing them by making them pretend to be someone else

Should this be something the government teaches one way or the other? No. But I dont see issues with a conversation starting in school in younger grades so kids learn to think about the idea that they may be different than others and others may be different than them

 

[scout86]

I guess my thought would be that it depends on what they're planning on doing and my concerns are similar to @Friday 's. If they're planning on a program that teaches we should accept people as they are, for who they are, and allow them to be considered "ok", whether they match stereotypes or not, I'm all for it. If it's about putting people in boxes, just more boxes, then I'm not sure I am for it. I'm kind of of the opinion that there shouldn't BE a "pink" section in toy stores. Sort stuff by what it is and let kids play with what they want, with no effort made to steer them in a direction. If that's what the schools are thinking, I'd be fine with it. Kids learn stereotypes from adults, they aren't born with them, so I'm sure they kids wouldn't have a problem with this either.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I guess my thought would be that it depends on what they're planning on doing and my concerns are similar to @Friday 's.

I wish I could like you and Fridays post a million times I would. Let kids be kids and wear and play with what they want. I do not believe it is wise for transitioning children at such a vulnerable time in their lives either. But even so the results will be known in twenty years so time will tell if this is wise or not.

 

[Deleted member 33052]

I can't see any level of government actively promoting gender transition. I know it's still a work in progress, but from what I've heard and read to date, this a tool to teach tolerance.

I know that many children choose to transition before puberty in order to avoid going through irreversible physical changes. Are they influenced by their parents? Maybe. Are their parents simply accepting the inevitable? Maybe. Regardless, the children receive professional and medical counselling before making the decision.

 

[Suzetig]

And at home, it's as simple as accepting that your little boy prefers the *pink* section of the store, or allowing your child to make unconventional clothing choices.

See I just don't think of that as a gender issue at all, people are more than the clothes we wear and the things we do. Wearing pink and playing with dolls doesn't make my little boy not a boy any more. He isn't "transitioning", or being gender fluid - he's choosing a toy to play with and that's fine.

The push back from me around teaching 5 year olds is simply that by pushing a "gender fluid" agenda, we simply reinforce existing gender stereotypes. Want to play with dolls, wear pink, play with construction toys, dress up in heels? All fine, all part of kids exploring the world around them and should be encouraged at any age.

Talk to my 4 year old or 6 year old about "transitioning" and I'll kick your arse. Not because I wouldn't be supportive of my children expressing their identity any way they choose but because, at 4 and 6 they don't get to make life changing decisions, such as choosing to change their assigned gender identity. Hell they barely get to choose dinner at that age.

As kids there are lots of things my kids feel the need to do including eating ice cream for breakfast, staying awake all night, not ever doing homework, wearing welly boots to bed, feeding the cat crayons and never eating vegetables. The world doesn't run on what they feel the need to do, because as little kids they're still figuring it out - that's why they have parents, because they need guidance, protection and care. They can wear what they want (within reason), play with what they want, pursue whatever career they want eventually but I have a little boy and a little girl and certainly won't support them messing about with their gender identity until they're old enough to understand what that actually means and the impact of gender identity across their life course, and that isn't possible age 5.