Grinding My Axe

[Ziker]

After having been kicked out of two threads on this forum due to my outspokenness, I've decided to take the advice of one of the admins and start my own thread. It will be hugely unpopular. Frankly, I don't give a shit because I just want to get this out there:

I hate misandry, and it is everywhere. It is everywhere on this female-majority website, and it is everywhere in real life as well.

But wait! you say. Surely women are constantly oppressed by men just by being women! Surely women are constantly attacked by men everywhere, all the time, every minute of every day that they exist! I am not going to argue that women are never oppressed. But that makes NO difference to my point that MEN ARE ALSO OPPRESSED, but unlike women, MEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE VICTIMIZED BY OPPRESSION.

Intersectionalism tells us that all people have varying amounts of priviliege ... except, of course, if you are a white man - then you have ALL the privilege. This, friends, is bullshit. I had the privilege of being told by my parents, religious instructors, and teachers from a young age all the way through college that I was a predator because I am a male. I had the privilege of being told by my girlfriends that I would undoubtedly rape and molest them because I am a male. Finally, I have had the privilege of being told by people of all kinds on the internet that I am a filthy, disgusting, privileged oppressor because I am a white male.

At some point, if you're constantly told shit about yourself, you start to believe it, even if it's not true. My feelings of guilt and shame over things I HAD NOT DONE AND WOULD NEVER DO led me into relationships with women who were able to physically and emotionally abuse me because I was afraid that standing up for myself was tantamount to abusing them.

Sorry, but being told you're a predator over and over and over and over because of your gender? That's something women will NEVER be able to understand. Being straight-up called a RAPIST because of your gender? Same. Watching people cross the street rather than have to walk past you because of your gender? Same. Being accused of rape and abuse THAT NEVER HAPPENED by people you are supposed to love for all eternity because of your gender? Women, this could never possibly happen to you. And then, after all that, being called an OPPRESSOR simply because of your gender? This could simply not happen to anyone but a man.

You CANNOT walk in my shoes. You don't get it, because you can't. And the misandrists still have the audacity to accuse me of misogyny because my pain can't possibly match a woman's pain, just because my gender hasn't been oppressed since the discovery of agriculture. Give me a f*cking break.

And if you're a self-described feminist, I count you among the misandrists. Sorry, but there is no group more likely to blame men - ALL men, and not even individual men - for their own pain. "Toxic masculinity." "Rape culture." "Mansplaining." "Patriarchy," for christ's sake - these are all bullshit concepts feminists use to blame and shame men. ALL men. And especially men who have done nothing to deserve your hate.

That's all. I'm done. Ready for my ban now, I guess.

 

[Eju]

This thread is so hyperbolic that it's difficult to even respond properly. I'm a woman who was abused by numerous men and I don't think all men are rapists and "oppressors," as you say. And I agree that it often goes overlooked that men are oppressed and victimized too.

But I don't think all the women on this forum are misandrists. And if there are some, all you have to do is ignore their threads and find others who don't hold their views. If you were literally told you're "a predator over and over because of your gender" throughout your life, it sounds like you were constantly around abusive people.

 

[Avezu]

You basically described social justice warriors, which are a completely different breed of troll online, and acted out against feminism and women in the exactly the stereotyping overbearing way they do. I don't actually mean this to be as unkind as this sounds, although I utterly disagree with most of what you've said, but can you not see the irony in letting them (tumblerina's/social justice warriors) 'win' in this manner?

 

[Gudi]

I don't believe..or have ever felt ALL men are as you shared above.
And no I can not walk in your shoes . I have not heard the things you have heard.
And I'm glad you have the space to say how you feel you have been victimized by being told the things you were.
I can say you don't know me. As a woman, I do not feel the way you described.
I have been raped and abused by men as a child.
But I do not paint men with this wide brush that you are all "that way".
I am not a feminist either.
I'm just a woman trying to make her way in the world.
The following is said with observation, not malice.
I see you paint ALL WOMEN with the other side of the brush that you feel ALL MEN have been painted with.
Life has a lot of balance. I'm not offended by your feelings. They do not apply to me and my interaction with men.
I am glad, however, that you shared your feelings.
My hope is that by sharing this..things become less black or white..or all or nothing.
You deserve to have a more balanced view and not be so hurt.

 

[Voval]

I don't know that this thread will get banned/shut down. I mean it is your own thread now ahhaha, you are allowed an opinion.

I personally don't think male or female makes any difference. I always wondered if the number of female abuse victims was always so much higher just because women often (not speaking for everyone here) seem to find it easier to talk about than men, and it is more socially acceptable for women to have feelings than it is for men to have them.

I think expecting women who have suffered horrendous abuse from men directly to not feel nervous, upset and suspicious of men is not realistic. But also realise many people here were also abuse by their parents, that includes women. People who abuse other people come in all shapes, sizes and genders and I don't think anyone here would think differently about what you went through because you are male.

Women have a huge number of things they are told they 'will' be as well; we will be sluts, we won't succeed, we are weaker. Just as males are told they will be strong, aggressors, emotionally unaffected. Its different sides to the same coin, and I don't think it is fair on either side.

Don't hate us all because we have suffered too. This is a place where you can be understood, so don't push the people on here away :).

I wish you all the best, and I hope you learn to get on in the community!

 

[A D M I N]

After having been kicked out of two threads on this forum due to my outspokenness

I need to clarify: Members don't get kicked out of threads or outspokenness. They do get kicked from threads for differing kinds of derailments. And if you (or anyone) is banned from a thread and wants to know why, or say something about it, I really encourage you to either open a ticket or, if you want it to stay completely confidential, (because this is an issue you are raising in the Anon. forum), please message me directly. (Me being @joeylittle)

Regarding this thread: I hope it can stay open, there is a lot to discuss in here. The OP has made correct use of the Anonymous forum; I understand why they would want that shield for this. Others: please remember that anonymous is not an excuse to throw rocks at people without there being consequence. Admin can see who you are, if they choose to. We don't do that unless necessary.

Carry on -

Joeylittle

 

[Ojisi]

I had the privilege of being told by my parents, religious instructors, and teachers from a young age all the way through college that I was a predator because I am a male. I had the privilege of being told by my girlfriends that I would undoubtedly rape and molest them because I am a male. Finally, I have had the privilege of being told by people of all kinds on the internet that I am a filthy, disgusting, privileged oppressor because I am a white male. At some point, if you're constantly told shit about yourself, you start to believe it, even if it's not true.

I am sorry to read this, because those messages are shitty and not true.

And it's really horrible that those messages were hammered so much that you started to believe them. I mean, that's what happens with all kinds of labels we are given - but it is an awful thing to happen to anyone, and I'm very sorry that it happened to you.

 

[Ufaj]

I met a man yesterday who told me that he had been beaten and abused many a time by his father, as were his mother and other siblings. He described having been pulled out of bed, thrown to the floor and trounced upon many a time during his childhood, all the while his mother was frantically trying to protect him. Thankfully the father left when he was in his teens never to return. He said he prided himself in not falling victim to it, has worked all his life, not gone for therapy or anything like that and has basically risen above it. He works 3 jobs now, for instance and is in his 60s. I know he also takes care of his yard and gardens.

He is just one of the many men that I do NOT see as a rapist, predator or whatever else you mentioned above that I have forgotten, but get the basic idea of.

Since I have CPTSD, was the victim of childhood molestation and also adult repeated date rape, I am weary of most men, I will admit it. However, I don't see them as predators, really, just persons to be weary of until I get to know them well enough to trust them.

I had a good and gentle husband. I was very grateful for that. He never abused me in any way. We were married for over 20 years, happily. Then he died. It was after that, that I had the misfortune of hooking up with an abusive boyfriend. I tried leaving him 17 times before I finally succeeded.

These days I have a gentle boyfriend. I am pleased about that. None the less, I refused to accept his marriage proposal. I am still gun shy I guess. I suppose I always will be. Does that make me guilty of the things you accuse women of above? I am not sure. Let me just put it to you this way, I doubt I will ever be able to fully trust any man again, not enough to live in the same house with him and be totally at his mercy. Men can be very gentle and kind when you meet them. They can seem that way for a long time. However, if you move in with one, you are putting your life into his hands. Period. And I just cannot bring myself to take that chance. Even though he seems like the gentlest soul, he could "change" if I were to say "I do." and move in with him.

Besides, I kind of like choosing what I want to eat every day, what kind of music I want to listen to, what I want to watch and planning my own schedule and not answering to anyone. I love my freedom.

I'm not a feminist. I'm just a person who likes my life the way it is.

If that makes me "guilty" of "misandry" in your eyes, then you are entitled to your opinion. I, however, do not agree. I think I am just over cautious, and because of my past, I think I am entitled to be that way.

 

[Alab]

I am not going to argue that women are never oppressed. But that makes NO difference to my point that MEN ARE ALSO OPPRESSED, but unlike women, MEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE VICTIMIZED BY OPPRESSION.

I feel how much anger and hurt is here. I really do get it. No one should ever dismiss another's experience of systematic or individual oppression on such an arbitrary basis. Men are allowed to be victimized by oppression. I'd say you're probably interacting with people who want to emphasize the historic systematic oppression of women as a class of people, which really has no bearing on the fact that men and white people and cis-gendered people etc can experience the fullness of oppression like anybody else.

A teacher once told me that the reason I didn't like The Awakening by Chopin was because I didn't know what it was like to be stuck in a situation with a man. I was being stalked, threatened, and abused by my boyfriend when he said that to me. He dismissed my opinion just because I was young. I'm still pissed about this invalidation. You can't just wave away someone's opinion on the basis that they can't possibly understand, because they're X, Y, or Z category of person. Wtf, society.

Intersectionalism tells us that all people have varying amounts of priviliege ... except, of course, if you are a white man - then you have ALL the privilege. This, friends, is bullshit.

That is intersectionality done so, so, so severely wrong it's not funny. Actually, intersectionality is the opposite of that. It's accepting that privilege isn't static, it shifts depending on context, and everyone at some point may have more privilege than someone who is historically privileged in society. So whoever preaches that bullshit, tell them to read a f*cking book.

Sorry, but being told you're a predator over and over and over and over because of your gender? That's something women will NEVER be able to understand.

That's actually something women, especially "self-described feminists," should be able to understand very well. That is being portrayed as something with no basis in your individual reality that isn't true but forced down your throat anyway. That's, like, the whole thing women try to overcome all the f*cking time, so if people aren't listening to your experience of being profiled via gender just because your gender doesn't fall in a minority class? Ignore them. They're just too far up their own ass to see the big picture.

You CANNOT walk in my shoes. You don't get it, because you can't.

You're right, just as you don't know what it's like to be any other individual and carry their burdens. I can see how invalidated you've been, and that's wrong. But turning around to put down the population of this forum as misandrists isn't fair. I think you're taking things personally in the community that are just the true and lived experiences of women, and it feels like a knife in your side because of your own true and lived experience of being demonized and abused by those you tried not to hurt. Can you hear that?

And if you're a self-described feminist, I count you among the misandrists. Sorry, but there is no group more likely to blame men - ALL men, and not even individual men - for their own pain

I can't speak for all "self-described feminists," but the feminists who are actually working in gender studies and publishing scholarship today would probably take exception to this. I know I do. Actually, the more I allow myself to study modern ideas of feminism and gender studies, the more I've been realizing that the way society treats boys is the root of gender issues (at least in the West). Raising boys to be "tough" and demeaning them with words invoking girliness or some failing in masculinity (sissy, bitch, pussy, fag, Nancy, fairy), telling them not to share or show their feeling and demeaning them for that behavior (crybaby, wussy, pansy), encouraging them to be competitive and aggressive, rough-and-tumble, then telling those same boys when they turn into men to respect women, be open about their feelings, be sensitive, don't be homophobic, etc.? What the actual f*ck are we doing here, people?

I really do hear you. I hope you can hear me. I can feel your hurt. I hope you don't continue to turn that hurt into vitriol for those who have never perpetuated these abuses against you, just as you have never perpetuated abuse against me as a man. See what I mean?

 

[Zip]

But wait! you say.

Nope. You're mind reading, and you're wrong. These aren't any of my thoughts.

Sorry, but being told you're a predator over and over and over and over because of your gender? That's something women will NEVER be able to understand.

Gold Digger. 1st hand. Exact same character assassination, and set of assumptions/fear/revulsion made with nothing more than knowing your sex.

But as far as other kinds of understanding? You think women don't have son's? That mothers are not intimately acquainted with every trial and hardship their sons go through? That it doesn't alternately infuriate them & break their hearts? That women don't love & marry men, and aren't intimately acquainted with their battles? That women don't have brothers and best friends? The implication that women are so selfish, self-centered, and outright stupid -based on nothing except solely on our gender- is part of the pushback you've been receiving. That, and you're wrong. Many, if not most, if not the vast majority, of us do understand, to varying degrees. The idea that NONE of us could EVER understand AT ALL? Is wrong. Doesn't mean everyone does, and it doesn't mean the depth of understanding is the same, or that there is ever perfect understanding of any individual's life. But understanding does, in point of fact, exist. Shades of grey can be hard with PTSD. I very much recommend you try it, however.

Sorry, but being told you're a predator over and over and over and over because of your gender? Being straight-up called a RAPIST because of your gender? Same. Watching people cross the street rather than have to walk past you because of your gender? Same. Being accused of rape and abuse THAT NEVER HAPPENED by people you are supposed to love for all eternity because of your gender? Women, this could never possibly happen to you. And then, after all that, being called an OPPRESSOR simply because of your gender? This could simply not happen to anyone but a man.

All of these things are also experienced by women, if you remove the "based solely on your gender". Women are told they're predators. (See above). Women are falsely accused of sexual assault & rape, (as well as the harlot/whore/temptress/evil-woman nonsense). Your insistence that women could never be accused of rape? Is pure bullshit. That doesn't mean that men aren't falsely accused at astronomically higher rates. But "could simply not happen to anyone but a man" is wrong.

Is there a special kind of f*cked-upped-ness when it's an ISM? Sexism, racism, etc.? Yep. Speaking as an extreme minority for most of my life, there is. Which is yet another hole in your argument. There are more things than gender that lead to these exact same events and situations.

Same token, another hole big enough to drive a truck through, is that outside of ISMs engendering 1st hand understanding, there several other ways in which both women & men experience what you're limiting only to men. Just one example being that there are jobs that women work which inspire fear and hatred by complete strangers (causing them to cross the street, or avoid eye contact, or leave the line in the grocery store). Police. Military. It's the uniform, not the person / gender inside of it, but it's another example of how women can experience first hand the things you say only men experience, & only because they're men.

At some point, if you're constantly told shit about yourself, you start to believe it, even if it's not true. My feelings of Guilt and Shame over things I HAD NOT DONE AND WOULD NEVER DO led me into relationships with women who were able to physically and emotionally Abuse me because I was afraid that standing up for myself was tantamount to abusing them

And here we get to it. All women are not your abusers. All women don't think like them, act like them, nor are motivated by what they are motivated by.

You CANNOT walk in my shoes. You don't get it, because you can't.

In theory that's true for everyone. You cannot walk in my shoes, I cannot walk in yours. But we can be brought together by the similarities & learn, or we can be divided by the differences; becoming terminally unique. You were abused. A lot of people here were, and understand that. You've been discriminated against. A lot of people here were, or are, and do understand that.

And the misandrists still have the audacity to accuse me of misogyny because my pain can't possibly match a woman's pain, just because my gender hasn't been oppressed since the discovery of agriculture. Give me a f*cking break.

Actually I love and adore men as a species, although individual mileage varies. I have a much harder time with women, overall, but this is less based on who is harder & far more based on who I enjoy more. While some of my best friends are women, most of my best friends, as well as casual acquaintances are men/male . Am I female? Yep. Also a tomboy throughout my childhood, grew up being one of the boys. As an adult I've worked in not only a male dominated field, but one that limits the number of women in it to 4%, max. In my specific job it was more 1:200, and in my "area" of my field, it was usually myself and 1 or 2 other chicks per a command of over 1,000 men. Am I a lesbian? Nope. I adore men romantically, as well as professionally, intellectually, emotionally. Men f*cking rock. The last thing anyone who knows me would accuse me of is misandry.

So when I'm saying that a helluva lot of your statements and arguments are misogynistic? It has absolutely nothing to do with my view of men overall, much less some dick measuring contest about pain. In point of fact, while your statements are either misogynistic or flat out sexist (meaning you have far more misandry in your statements than I think you know; & I'm sorry, really and truly sorry about that, as I'm sure that's the last thing you want), I very much DOUBT YOU ARE misogynistic. Maybe. It's possible. But my personal opinion is that you're having a trauma reaction. That your brain is creating groupings, distinctions, & exclusions that aren't real. There are quite a few women, as well as several men in this forum, whose abusers were women and whose brains have made that link: Either they hate all women, don't trust all women, have visceral reactions around women (panic attacks, anxiety attacks, etc.), have decided all women are _____; or flip it from black to white and ONLY like men, only trust men, etc. If you read about in the forum you'll discover a great many people purposefully trying to work past that, and are at varying stages of it. Not something to be ashamed of, or try and hide, it's just trauma. It happens. That's only one possible "link" from trauma (the gender issue), but it's a really, really common one. It's less about beliefs, and far more about brains. For more on that? Try reading here: Stressor vs. Trigger - What Is A Trigger?

If I believe your statements are a trauma reaction, rather than misogyny, why the hell do I keep calling you on them? For the exact same reasons that I call people on misandrist statements, racist statements, etc. 1) This is a PTSD site. These kinds of reactions are incredibly common, and not at all helpful. They're a symptom, like any other. 2) I disagree with them. Not all men are _____, not all women are are _____, not all cops are _____, not all parents are _______, not all priests ______, not all drivers are _______, not all _____ are ______. They just aren't.

 

[Vilud]

OK here it goes. I sort of understand where the OP is coming from. The regressive left does seem to be gaining some momentum in the US and Canada. Having to listen to some idiot tell you to 'check your privilege' every time you disagree with them is not an easy pill to swallow. Nor is listening to the racist and sexist opinions of a guest on a talk show go unchallenged merely because she started her rant with, "As a lesbian woman of color...". Even worse is hearing a protester at a university yelling "You're triggering me!" over and over when someone was merely disagreeing with their opinion. Having said all that I have a word of caution from the point of view of an old guy who has seen a large part of this world.

I've lived and worked in many countries, usually in times of war or crisis. I've seen people kill one another over the most minor differences. I've seen people carry out the most egregious acts based on their racist/sexist beliefs.

During my travels I've both benefited from and been hindered by my 'race' and gender. In Rwanda I was able to go places and do things that no black person could have. Both sides seem to have believed merely by being white I was somehow good. Yet they were happy to kill each other for ethnic differences I could barely see.

In Sri Lanka I had a government official tell me, "you people f*cked this country up." It took me a few minutes to realize that he meant white people in general and that he was going to make me pay because I too was white. This despite the fact that nobody in my family tree had never been anywhere near Sri Lanka and were mostly dirt poor peasants.

In Afghanistan I was at the top of almost everyone's hit list both when I was a soldier and when I was an unarmed aid worker.

As an aid worker I had female colleagues accuse me of being sexist for suggesting that local cultural norms affected their security.

So the short version of the story is that there are all sorts of hate filled racist and sexist douchebags out there. They come in all colors, sizes, shapes and genders.

My advice? Don't let them make you their mirror image.

 

[Ziker]

Hi all, this is the OP, "Ziker" if I've done it right ...

I sincerely appreciate everyone's responses and compassion, all of which is much more than I deserve. Of course, as you probably guessed, I am currently having some emotional challenges. After discussing this post with my T, I'm going to leave it up, but I am also going to take a break from this site and other sites that get my anger going (not because of anyone here, but because of my own emotional issues). Following this post, I'm editing my hosts file, which I hope will be a sufficient pain in the ass so that I don't edit it again for awhile.

Thanks all, and my apologies if I added to your stress levels in any way.