In family therapy with narc-ish family; reveal aspergers dx?

[Still Standing]

If you are not feeling safe in family therapy, why not ask for one-on-one therapy for a while so that you can address all that you have shared here, with your therapist, so you know that she will have an opportunity to hear all of your concerns? If you don't want to use her, ask for someone who is familiar with counseling those with Aspergers. This seems like this would be the easiest way to help you and she work within a better understanding. I also have to say that though you feel like you have a target on your back, I think that it is a possibility that you are not understanding the whole picture. This is not to say that you are wrong in totality, only that you speak in absolutes about your mom and sister which may not be fully accurate as to how they really may be, just as they do not fully know how you are feeling in all this. This is a frustration that some with Aspergers feel. At least, this is what our son always felt and he would up and quit his job, because his frustrations was always everybody else's fault and he felt he was always overlooked for manager promotions. He is very high functioning and very smart, working in internet fraud, but he just didn't understand the finer points of relationships. In his eyes, everyone around him was against him in some form or another, when, in fact they were not. This is the same thing our friend's son reacts to in the workplace. No amount of trying to get him to see that he may be over reacting, is received well. Would it be possible that you also have a bit more difficulty in piecing together how to judge relationships? I don't mean to discount your family dynamics and I mean no offense. I just know that having Asperger's has it challenges and it takes extra efforts of those with it and the family members to adjust to it and live around it. It is also challenging to work and fit comfortably into society and the workplace. You sound like you are very insightful with great understanding. I think some singular therapy might be really good for you. You could use some support, on your own, in all this.

 

[scout86]

I also have to say that though you feel like you have a target on your back, I think that it is a possibility that you are not understanding the whole picture.

This is kind of thought provoking. Now, I DON'T have Asperger's. But, honestly, in my family of origin, dealing with my mom & my brother, I had that same kind of "target on my back" feeling. It was really my experience, I think, that if I managed to do something "right" the rules would immediately change so it was no longer right. I suppose that could have been me, missing some larger point, but I still have no clue what it might have been.

@DogwoodTree , do you get the same feeling dealing with people other than your mom and sister? (Because I don't & discovering that was my first clue that maybe, just maybe, the whole problem wasn't me.)

 

[DogwoodTree]

Your mother seems like she would not want to be seen as discriminating against her daughter, so that might keep her from doing things like calling you "handicapped" at work.

I hope this is true. But if not, I'm wondering what kinds of boundaries I might be able to use to protect myself.

If you are not feeling safe in family therapy, why not ask for one-on-one therapy for a while so that you can address all that you have shared here, with your therapist, so you know that she will have an opportunity to hear all of your concerns?

I've met with her one-on-one three times now (we've met as a family three or four times). When I meet with her individually, I have to pay for it myself. That's expensive, especially considering I'm also paying for my own individual therapy with my regular T. I also email her from time to time, but I'm not sure how effective that is.

If you don't want to use her, ask for someone who is familiar with counseling those with Aspergers.

I've searched high and low in my area for someone who knows both aspergers and trauma...and who I'm comfortable with. There's one guy I interviewed who said he could do both, but he was just weird somehow. It felt icky, so I didn't go back to him. I haven't found any other options, even when I was willing to drive an hour each way. There are a couple of autism Ts, but they're more focused on more traditional autism issues, like kids trying to get their first girlfriend/boyfriend, or a young adult trying to get and keep their first real job. I'm in my 40s, married for over 20 years, and have 4 kids. I've learned some decent social skills to mask my issues in superficial situations. What I need is more of a cross between autism and trauma help, and that isn't something that's easy to come by. My individual T is learning about autism, and he's a trauma specialist of sorts. But I can't also use him for family therapy.

you speak in absolutes about your mom and sister

That's weird because I try to avoid using absolutes. "Seems to" instead of "is", "often" instead of "always"...I'm aware of those thought distortions and try to avoid them.

Would it be possible that you also have a bit more difficulty in piecing together how to judge relationships? I don't mean to discount your family dynamics and I mean no offense. I just know that having Asperger's has it challenges and it takes extra efforts of those with it and the family members to adjust to it and live around it. It is also challenging to work and fit comfortably into society and the workplace.

It's certainly possible. I spend hours and hours researching these topics so that I can challenge my perceptions and try to understand what's really going on...how much of this is my own reactivity, and how much is objectively dysfunctional on their part? I run things past my T, to the point of even recording conversations with my mom, typing out the transcript, and playing it back to my T so he can hear context, tone of voice, all of it except for seeing body language/facial expressions.

I realize that I can be stubborn when I believe I've worked out the "reality" of what happened when others don't see it that way. But my T also says I need to learn to trust myself more, that if I perceive my mom has made a jab at me, given the fact that I try to objectively evaluate exactly what was said and the context and all of it and also evaluate my own bias in the situation...he says I need to learn to trust my perception of what happened more and not rely on others to tell me if I'm justified in what I perceive. Or maybe he got tired of me checking in with him on everything, I don't know.

How else can I subject my perceptions to objective scrutiny? And at what point does it not matter whether this can be confirmed objectively? If this is the way I experience other people's communications, then doesn't that in itself have some validity? Why is it the NT (neurotypical) perception that matters, and not mine? Why do their feelings about a communication matter more than mine do, when theirs are based on reading into what I've said, but mine are based on the objective, dictionary definitions of the words used?

At what point do I get to trust my own perceptions and experience of what was said? They don't seem to be subjecting their perceptions to any sort of scrutiny. Why do my perceptions have to go through 8 degrees of cross-examination and approval before I'm allowed to believe what I experienced?

I'm also not trying to be offensive. And I recognize that asperger's creates some distortion in NT-aspie communications. I'm sure there's also distortion in my perception of objective reality, as there is for anyone. But why is my filter the only one that is considered to be problematic?

I think some singular therapy might be really good for you. You could use some support, on your own, in all this.

I've been seeing an individual T for well over three years now, and I saw a lay counselor for some time before that. I've also tried additional layers of therapy, sometimes with multiple layers of expense. Really, when it comes right down to it, I resent the money I have to put towards meeting with the famT one-on-one. I'd rather put that money towards marriage counseling. My DH and I have some things we need to work through, but the issues with my mom and sister have drained so much of my time, money, and emotional bandwidth, that we've not been able to address those things in my marriage.

My mom and sister both said they would also meet individually with the famT, but then both backed out because they decided they didn't really have anything they needed to work on for themselves...the problems were all with me, and so have to be addressed as a group. At the beginning of family therapy, my mom said, "Really, 80% of these problems we're having are my fault because I was too lenient with the girls when they first started working for me, and I created a sense of entitlement in them." It was a clever form of blameshifting, where she put the responsibility for the current issues square on our shoulders (although not for my sister, because it's a family rule to never say anything bad directly about her or she'll pitch a fit and run crying out of the room, which means my mom was really talking about me...and, given other context details that I can't repeat here, she made it very clear that she sees me as the problem, to the point of saying she really wishes she could just cut me out of the business).

Anyway, point is, I have an individual T. And I've met with the famT a few times, trying to give her as much information as I can, and work out a functioning relationship between us. But I'm not sure it's working.

It was really my experience, I think, that if I managed to do something "right" the rules would immediately change so it was no longer right.

Moving the goalposts...yes, this definitely happens for me. They say what they're wanting, I try to do it that way, but somehow it's never enough. Sometimes I'll give them what I thought they were asking for, and I actually get in trouble for it. I've gotten to the point of trying to discern between which things they're asking for because they actually want them, and which things they're saying they want but really they just want to complain. But then I mis-group those things, and miss something they thought was really important, or put a lot of time into something they didn't care about. It's incredibly frustrating. And when I ask for clarification, they're bothered that I don't already know what they want.

do you get the same feeling dealing with people other than your mom and sister?

This is hard. No, I don't feel like I have a target on my back with everyone else. But I can definitely point to other situations where I did feel that way.

At the same time, I can point to many other situations where people seemed to pull away from me if I let my guard down a little and tried to be more of my real self with them...they didn't pull away in an attacking sort of way, but just disappeared. So I understand that my real self must be very difficult to be in relationship with. Which feeds the shame and the social isolation to keep from subjecting people to knowing me. I've told my T many, many times that I try to protect people from me. He insists that many of those situations had more to do with their issues than with me, and maybe he's right. But then what should I believe? If it only happened occasionally, then sure, everybody faces relationships that fall apart for reasons unrelated to who they are, and yet they're left with several other friends to make up the difference. But over and over and over? Either I'm doing something wrong that messes up what might have been a decent friendship, or I'm screwed up and people are better off not being around me, despite all the many years trying to adjust myself to fit their expectations, and then trying to adjust myself to have better boundaries and healthier relationships, and still losing friends despite not having any conflicts that I could identify...they just lose interest and stop responding to my occasional texts or messages or invitations (and no, I don't bombard them with messages). I've pretty much given up on having a social life of any kind. I sit at home or do things by myself so people don't have to be around me.

So maybe the problem really is me? Even if they do have codependency/anxious attachment issues, and even if my communications exhibit much healthier boundaries but lack warmth, maybe none of that matters if I'm too uncomfortable and awkward to be in relationship with.

 

[scout86]

At the same time, I can point to many other situations where people seemed to pull away from me if I let my guard down a little and tried to be more of my real self with them...they didn't pull away in an attacking sort of way, but just disappeared

I've had that happen too. And my T says the same thing yours does. He also says, though, that everything pretty much exists on a continuum, that there are things the middle that most people are comfortable with things the edges that fewer people comfortable with. (My attempt to put his ideas into words, not his wording.) He says I live well outside the day part of most of the curves, but that didn't mean I'm wrong. IDK

 

[ILoveLife]

One thing I've been dealing with, or was dealing with my past T, is my own part in the family dynamics. I'm a child of an alcoholic abusive father, my mom was severely emotionally abused as a child, my sisters and me abused by my father.. you can see the terrible shape our family dynamics is currently, and I'm the only one doing therapy. My father passed away years ago, my oldest sister is deep in some religion now, and my middle sister ran away to the other side of the world. My mom agreed to therapy, but had to stop due to work schedulles, it did help our relationship a lot though.

What happened to me when I disclosed my dxs, was that everyone (even the most dysfunctional ones) were super supportive of me. They understood the instability as they recognize their own instability.
Funny thing, once the dxs were removed, however, I had to go no-contact with my sisters because they reacted really badly. My oldest sister stopped answering the phone, my middle sister screamed at me that I didn't know what was what... it was a big mess. Things are calmer now, I've spoken to my middle sister in the meanwhile and she calmed down, haven't heard or called my oldest sister again.
Other family members started blaming me for my substance abuse and dependency, even though when it started I was too young to know what the hell I was doing... as a reaction to childhood trauma that they knew was happening and enabled it. So you see.. what a mess!

The thing is, we can't control others. What your mother is or isnt only matters when it comes to the relationship with you, same as your sister's depression.
I never allowed for my dxs to be ammunition, I held them proudly and explained as many times needed what they entailed, got upset and spoke about it when needed, layed boundaries, all that. Your mom's traits possibily fall in the same category, even if they're different than your own traits. Turns out the ammunition was in the lack of diagnoses... it's my fault and my responsibility to be better than myself. The same standards we put onto them, they put onto us.

What seems to matter here is if the disclosure will help you or not in having a more stable relatioship with your family, this T seems to think so, we wouldn't know for sure. As you can see, some think it might, some think it won't. It's really something you need to figure out, if it's in fact your Aspergers getting in the way of the relationships or some personality traits that you can work on, I don't mean pathological, which would be fine too.

From what you said, I don't think this family T thinks it's solely your biological empathetic inadequacy getting in the way. I think she understands you do have empathy, just that you also need to learn how to show it in an effective way, because it seems like the current way is not working for your family dynamics. Hence the disclosure idea. She's probably focusing more on you - hence you feeling targeted - because she probably sees you with the most ability for insight, and not because she is targeting you for real.
When we come from a history of abuse, we learn to think that we have targets on our backs, and it's awfully difficult to unlearn that perspective.

Not sure if you agree with any of this, it's just my perspective. Hope I'm not crossing any boundaries here :)

 

[DogwoodTree]

everything pretty much exists on a continuum, that there are things the middle that most people are comfortable with things the edges that fewer people comfortable with

That makes sense. I read an article a couple of days ago that talked about the "spectrum of humanity", and said that aspies are just a part of that fuller spectrum...perhaps an outlying part, and that can be problematic, but like you said, not wrong. I think the big revelation for me in all this is that my autistic perspective matters. I always thought my perspective only matters to the degree I can shape it into something more "normal", something that "makes sense" to everyone else, and if it doesn't make sense to them, then I don't have a right to it. But my T is saying my perspective as an autistic matters, regardless of whether it makes sense to anyone else. I don't have to change it before it matters.

From what you said, I don't think this family T thinks it's solely your biological empathetic inadequacy getting in the way. I think she understands you do have empathy, just that you also need to learn how to show it in an effective way, because it seems like the current way is not working for your family dynamics.

I talked this over with my T the other day. I asked him what empathy is like for NTs (neurotypical people), and he described a sense of being understood and connected when someone shows you empathy or when you show someone else empathy. But that's not the way I experience those supposedly empathetic expressions. For me, at best it's just static in the conversation. So for me, from my autistic perspective, NT expressions or expectations of empathy is an exercise in caretaking other people's emotions. It doesn't generate a sense of connection in me at all, and actually requires that I give up my own sense of connection with my self and my internal reality in order to give the other person that experience and try to guess at what they want, along with the very real fear of getting it wrong and making them angry. So all that unhealthy caretaking codependents do to try to fix other people's emotions? It's the same experience for me internally as trying to generate the "right" expression of empathy. I can express empathy that is genuine, but it's such a complex and vulnerable process for me that I can only do it in a relationship where I feel safe and accepted, with the freedom to simply be myself, and that is definitely not possible when my mom or my sister is demanding that my relational expressions make them feel loved.

He said this is a very significant insight, and that the famT needed to know this. And when I asked him his opinion on whether I should share my dx, he said it seems I should address my concerns with the famT first so that I feel safer with her ability to really see what's going on for me, as an autistic, in balance with everyone else's experiences, too.

So, I wrote a 5-page letter to her and emailed it a couple of days ago. We had our session this morning, and it went much better. The famT focused more on the family system dynamics, and my mom and sister both seemed to get the message that I never intended rejection in my boundaries, but that I needed those boundaries because of the enmeshment in the family that had been so damaging to me. My mom has seemingly "heard" my point on this before, and apologized even, but it never sticks. There was one time that she seemed to get it, and then within 24 hours, she was pissed at me and giving me the silent treatment for no discernible reason I could identify. It was like the conversation from the night before never happened. So I'm not convinced this is a turning point, but I'm also trying to allow for that possibility, you know?

As of right now, I'm feeling more comfortable with the idea of revealing the dx, perhaps even at next week's session. I need some time to process what was said today and let my resulting emotions float to the surface.

 

[Still Standing]

I am really impressed with how much effort you have put into understanding your family dynamic, counseling and everything! Wow! Good job! I thought you were much younger, too. To record your mom was a brilliant idea!!!

"Really, 80% of these problems we're having are my fault because I was too lenient with the girls when they first started working for me, and I created a sense of entitlement in them." It was a clever form of blameshifting,

Ha! I have heard that approach before. Take the blame but do a bait and switch...you become the entitled daughter...grrrrr. I was the "reason" for my mom and dad's marriage difficulties so my mom put me into counseling with a psychologist when I was in the 4th grade. Boy! All hell break loose when my mom, at the conclusion of my therapy sessions, was told that she was the aggressor in the family dynamics. Wooo-Weeee! From then on, mom could do a bait and switch with people that left me out to dry by the time she was done playing her "good mom" role.

I've told my T many, many times that I try to protect people from me. He insists that many of those situations had more to do with their issues than with me, and maybe he's right. But then what should I believe?

I vote with your T. People can be fickle and surface in their friendships. A true friend does not abandon. In my life, I have found that a true friend is like a jewel and they are few but they are there for you in thick and thin. Friendly acquaintances can come and go and they serve a purpose for a season. I am old enough now, that the social pressure to have many friends is not important. I figure if someone likes me, they need to figure out how deep a commitment they want to invest. I will dance the dance of friendship until either of us senses that it will not go any deeper and then we stay at that level. But, to protect them from me is not my problem. I cannot control their thoughts toward me. That is their decision to make. The only one I need to protect is me. If we click, then we continue to explore the relationship. If not, one of us walks away or both of us walk. I think this PTSD stuff makes us very self-protective. It is a hard thing to overcome.

why is my filter the only one that is considered to be problematic?

I would not think that your filter is problematic. You are right, it should not be the main factor that lays in your lap that makes it look like it is what your family dynamic is based upon. Obviously, it is not. You have other personalities involved that add their own unique filters to the mix. Hopefully, while in counseling these can be explored and you all can find an easier and more compatible way to work in the family business. And I don't know your family, but from the depth of your own insight I would say that you are far and above them in understanding of your situation. :):tup:

 

[scout86]

I can express empathy that is genuine, but it's such a complex and vulnerable process for me that I can only do it in a relationship where I feel safe and accepted, with the freedom to simply be myself,

Empathy isn't my best thing, but that, right there, seems pretty normal, reasonable, and healthy, to me.

 

[DogwoodTree]

So, I told them about my dx last week. I went over my thoughts with my T in one session, and also in an individual session with famT, to help me prepare my notes. The T suggested I explain up front why I was sharing that information. The famT suggested I add more detailed examples to my list of traits. I also carefully pruned my tone so it focused solely on the transfer of information and didn't wander into any "blaming" territory--I figured they would question why I didn't tell them sooner, and I wanted to provide some preliminary explanation on that, but it sounded too much like I was attacking them. In taking it out, what I had to say came across very neutrally, but I failed to think through and make notes to myself of how to respond to those questions when they came up (which they did), so I wasn't prepared to respond thoughtfully...it was more reactive and left me feeling unstable afterwards.

I did, however, successfully anticipate that they would hone in on my dx as "the reason" for all the problems we've been having, so in my notes I had reminded myself that it didn't really matter why they made adjustments to respect my boundaries better, so long as they did, and that helped me stay calm as that part played out in the conversation. Overall, all things considered, they were calm in their responses...no anger or fearfulness or other emotional reactivity. But they moved more and more towards a position of, "This is what's been causing all these problems all along. Now it makes sense." My sister said, "This is like the legend on a map that makes everything that's been happening make sense." The famT said, "Do you see how saying that can make it seem like you think the autism is the only problem here? You're all contributing to the problems--everyone has problems here." I'm hesitant to give much detail about the session itself because, if they were to ever find my posts online, I'm concerned about how they might react. The famT did a decent job of trying to keep the conversation balanced between my dx and the dysfunctional family patterns without "accusing" either of the others of being "bad" in any way. But I don't think they were at all open to hearing any of that, and so it just went in one ear and out the other.

I feel deeply over-exposed and vulnerable to their judgments of me now. I'm very private, and didn't want to give them any of this information about myself, but we had come to a place where it seemed to be the only way to get them to understand I can't be who they want me to be. My T, in preparing for the family session, talked a lot about coming into the conversation on equal standing with them, and not seeing myself as one-down from them. But I wasn't able to pull that off. I felt humiliated and ashamed. I can just imagine them grinning as they walked away, knowing they had "proof" now that I'm the one who's screwed up and it's my neuro-atypicality that's causing all the problems in communication and collaboration and misunderstandings and hurt feelings and everything else. I'm trying hard to remind myself this is just a variation--that my way of seeing the world, though unusual, is not in itself dysfunctional or deficient. But they're identifying it as a disability--a handicap--and my mom even said she and my sister need to time to talk about this between themselves so they can "strategize" how to work with me going forward. The famT warned against having conversations about me that didn't include me, but I don't know they heard what she was saying or if they'll honor that advice.

I need to learn how to hold onto a sense of "self" around them, and how to see myself as being on equal footing with them--not one-up or one-down (which is the typical way my family relates to people outside the "core", which I am). I need to figure out how to define my autism for myself, and not let them define it for me in ways that are just convenient or gratifying for them. We've talked about these things in therapy, and intellectually, I understand this is what I need to do. But I don't get the "how" of it. At what point is my logic system breaking down when interacting with them? How am I letting automatic internal responses (like shutting down) interfere with my ability to communicate, and how can I prevent those things from happening? What do I need to keep in mind as I go into these conversations so that I retain a sense of personal power, and how can I ensure those thoughts will remain available to me under stress?

Problem is, I struggle with these things even in conversations with other people who are fairly healthy, and so to try to do better in these higher-stress relationships with my family is unreasonable. Even with friends who are generally safe, I go into chameleon mode, where I try to basically disappear and just leave a hologram-persona of sorts in my place so other people won't notice that I'm not "there." My T said the other day that no one--not even him--should have so much power over me as to be able to make a thesis-statement definition of who I am or what my value is based on their opinion. And I agree. But I don't know how to change that in myself, or what that would look like, or how that would function.

 

[Still Standing]

Wow! You took a HUGE step in trust and trying to work a solution out with your working and family situation. Take this as a victory in giving yourself a voice. You are an equal to your mom and sis even if they do not see it. Maybe, with time, they will be able to adjust their thinking and relationship to include you. One can only hope. Are you guys going to have more family therapy sessions, so you all can continue to work on a healthier relationship with each other? I am so impressed that you shared and have done all you know to do. And your T is so right. No one should have power over you defining who you are. You get to be the one to define yourself. We can't force someone to think of us differently, but we can choose to live above the false view of others...proving them wrong. Maybe that is what being confident is all about...living in such a way that is unaffected by other's opinions. I am so impressed with what you shared. You go girl! You have more power in all this than what you may think. You don't have to feel inferior to them. I bet if the table was turned, they would never have had a family session as you chose to do. Just doing that says how responsible you are, especially as an employee, family member or not! You care deeply about things and fairness. Those are great qualities. I hope, with you, that this will be a beginning to a healthier working environment for you.

 

[scout86]

I'm impressed too. I think you did great in a very difficult situation.

I seriously doubt you'll ever have a "good" or "normal" relationship with them. That might not be accurate. That might be a view that's effected by my own experiences with what I'm quite sure was true NPD.

But, you don't really need a good family relationship with them, right? You just need to be able to do your job in a way that both gets things done and let's you survive the dynamics.

And I agree. But I don't know how to change that in myself, or what that would look like, or how that would function.

I think mostly that takes time and support. I like and respect my T WAY more than my mother. He's been trying to assure me that I'm ok long enough that I'm beginning to believe he's not lying. I suspect, eventually, I might begin to believe he's right. It's hard, though, when you've heard all your life that YOU are THE problem.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Are you guys going to have more family therapy sessions, so you all can continue to work on a healthier relationship with each other?

Yes. We need to work out some specific issues, but we have a very intense work schedule coming up soon and I don't know how I'll possibly have the energy to do all the work and do this family therapy stuff. I spend hours and hours every day thinking about this and trying to work through it in my head. It's exhausting.

You get to be the one to define yourself.

I think this is really where I need to turn my focus going forward. I've been putting so much time into trying to understand the family system and each person's contribution to it...so that I would know how to interact with them more successfully. But in a way, I now have the opportunity to redefine myself and my role, both inside and outside the family system. Problem is, I don't know what that is--I don't know who I am, really.

My T said I need to identify my values as a starting point. Not the values I took on to try to please other people, but the values that I actually live by from the inside, the values that are consistent across all the masks I wear to cope with different situations. There are so many values I took on from my parents in my effort to be a "good" person. It's almost panicky to think about leaving those values behind. What if I'm wrong? But I realize that's the essence of what it means to be an adult--you make your own decisions and handle the consequences, both good and bad, and those consequences are usually mixed anyway because life is too complex for black and white. So, in theory I get that. But how do I walk it out? And T says that's a lifelong journey that everyone has to work out.

I seriously doubt you'll ever have a "good" or "normal" relationship with them.

I think, even if they start really making progress toward healthier dynamics, it will be a long time before trust is rebuilt. We've been stuck in a classic abuse cycle...they finally admit to having done something wrong in the past, say they're sorry and why can't I forgive them already, and then demand immediate return of trust, and if I don't it's because I didn't adequately forgive and the problem is still me. My T reminds me that these boundaries I've created in an effort to de-enmesh...that I get to keep those boundaries in place as long as I feel I need them. My family doesn't get to decide when my boundaries should be softened.

I like and respect my T WAY more than my mother.

I have a really hard time believing my T on these kinds of things. He only knows what I've told him or brought to him (like emails or recorded conversations). He only sees me an hour a week. He doesn't have to live with me. He doesn't have to depend on me for anything at all. He didn't know me when I was younger, and he doesn't even know what I'm like outside his office. How can he possibly--really--know anything at all about me? But really, I guess all he needs to do is keep challenging my logic processes and whatever erroneous conclusions I come to. So I don't treat his statements as evidence, but I do hear his voice in my head reminding me that I get to be who I am, whatever that is. He has a good grasp of healthy principles, and from those, I can find my own evidence over time, I suppose.