Other Justice beyond what the world gives.

[DanM96$$]

Hey everybody. I really want to talk of my experience with not only with what I know my family has done to me, but what that means as a person of faith.

I was… put through a lot of different types of abuse. Physical, religious, and emotional to be specific. I’ve been pretty much told by my brother and father that I’m nothing. And that my mother is choosing obliviousness to avoid conflict. I’ve been a sufferer and a witness to very intense domestic violence. Being told that “I must forgive because I’m a Christian.” Being told that my self worth is completely destroyed through no fault of my own beyond what my family has taught me. To fear emotion and to not love your own self. And worse yet, I’m told when I genuinely talk about my honest feelings of anger and frustration with my church members, I get called “angry and entitled.” No compassion whatsoever. I was thrown in hospitalizations one after another. I was torn to shreds psychologically day by day. And then being told, I’m nothing. “Forgive and forget.” My PTSD diagnosis was diagnosed by a therapist who knows how to diagnose, but because it didn’t come from a doctor, that I’m somehow “irrelevant or wrong.” I can’t even get a girlfriend. I can’t even find LOVE. Because of how low my self-worth is because of my family. Even when I almost committed suicide years ago and had to be hospitalized for years… I’m just told to “move on.” And I was told that I was selfish for even considering suicide by my own psychiatrist even though he knew I was truly under an insurmountable amount of stress.

And what do I get? “Forgive your family or else God won’t forgive you.” “You just need to forgive,”
“You know, you’d see more open doors in your life if you just forgive.”

What about justice? Huh? Is THAT too much to ask for? I don’t want them to be in jail. I want God to come BACK. I want God to validate ME. I want be vindicated by Yahweh so no one GETS TO ARGUE WITH ME ANYMORE. I want to be told by God that my life MATTERED. I want the world to know my life matters and that my experience is TRUTH. So that the entire world may know with no doubt that my religious family, full of pastors and priests… were the biggest LIARS OF ALL.

For ONCE. I want someone to look at me. And tell me, I MATTER. That they don’t just tell me “just forgive!” That they don’t use that as leverage to make it seem like I’m not the who’s not listening to Christ!

 

[Sideways]

I can’t speak for God, but you matter.

Forgiveness is a big deal to some people. Not so much to others of us. I allow people around me to see forgiveness as important, but it doesn’t mean I need to value it as well.

When preaching to me about the value of forgiveness crosses the line into a way to simply shut me up? f*ck that noise.

You sound angry. You have reason to be. And anger can be a powerful motivator to generate change.

 

[Friday]

Mod Note : Trigger warning removed. Please see our Community Constitution for more on that.

Thanks! & back to our regularly scheduled thread!

 

[Movingforward10]

Some things are unforgivable. But we can make peace with it. That's how I see it. I don't forgive the people who hurt me. But I have made peace with the fact I was hurt.

I'm not religious so don't understand the 'foegiveness' thing. and sometimes I think people hang on to this forgiveness thing and don't actually get the nuance of self love, self forgiveness, self compassion. For me, it's about how we sit within ourselves that is key.

The person who caused that harm? They got some work to do. The work is on them. Are they asking for forgiveness by saying "I am sorry I harmed you and I am working on being a better person?". Very likely not!

Ubless someone is saying sorry to you, the actual burden of forgiving them doesn't exist in my mind.

 

[Friday]

And what do I get? “Forgive your family or else God won’t forgive you.”

Christianity is like that.

It’s a religion that preaches forgiveness. Not justice.

Judaism & Islam both worship the same God, but have specific codes of Justice (let the punishment fit the crime -Jews- and do NOT punish anyone uninvolved in the crime -Islam- if you want to worship the same god, but affiliate in consequences for your actions, and personal responsibility.

 

[arfie]

to my nonreligious senses, forgiveness is not about vengeance or getting god to take orders. it is not about the other person/people, at all.

it is about letting go of the pain and bitterness.

then we get to justice. . . i "won" my day in court when my daddy served hard time in two states. it was just-ice which only added to the carnage. i don't tell god how to play judge, either.

 

[sidptitala]

I hate the idea of forgiveness, also. And I love the idea of justice.

I don't think you have to justify to anyone - just throwing forgiveness away. And focus on justice instead. What would make you feel like what happened to you no longer can? Pursue that instead, even if people hate it (people who are ok with abuse are going to hate it)

 

[captain jigglypuff]

Honestly, I can never forgive my bullies, especially the biggest and one who sexually assaulted me. In this strange way, my anger and refusal to forgive them is actually encouraging me to keep fight for my right to be heard and hope that maybe sharing my story of being a male sexual violence victim will encourage my state to change its statute of limitations for sexual assault and remove the cut off age victims must be in order to report their violators if the victim was a minor because there has to be more victims like me in my state who were never told their rights as a victim sexual violence and missed the cut off age when they finally find out what type of compensation they deserve. It just drives me to move forward and refusal to stay silent any longer. And the bonus I get is that I have some power over the bullies as they can’t force me to forgive them and they can’t take my forgiveness towards them away from me no matter what they do. It’s the one thing that no one can ever take away from me by force. I believe forgiveness should be earned not given away freely. If someone truly is sorry and remorseful for their previous actions then they should prove that they are deserving of it. Show me just how sorry you are for hurting me.

 

[Tinyflame]

Hi. If this is not helpful please disregard. Just a thought to throw out there.

I believe God loves you and always did, and no matter others' perceptions or advice this is important, you are important, and you do very much matter. Infinitely.

I believe justice is hard to define, as it doesn't undo damage. Forgiveness to me is not something easy to achieve by white knuckling. Do you want to forgive? Is now the time? There is no wrong answer. The more important part is what do you need to move forward? If you feel it is justice +/or validation, where can you receive it? (It doesn't sound like it is likely to come from perpetrators). Instead, who are others? Where and when do you feel peace, or joy? What dreams can you achieve if you can focus on other things?

God sees and knows everything, including the future. Such pain is His department as like you He suffered it too. Not that He caused your's but for better or worse we all will live with the consequences of our actions. Including the people who did what they did.

But I think being able to let go, trusts God will handle it. And tries to put a stop gap between more and more destruction and pain and lost lives.

I don't believe forgiveness has to equal reconciliation. It could mean holding the door open. Or biting your tongue vs getting pulled in. Not wishing harm but knowing at the end of the day we all have to account for our own lives, not any one else's.

I hope you will focus on being kind to yourself. And when you find yourself repeating their words, apologize to yourself. Some things are wrong and hurt people. Full stop. And try maybe 1st to forgive yourself. I know I need that anyway, where I feel I didn't have others' backs, or froze, or was unkind or rushed to judgement of others. When I have been forgiven it reminds me to try to give it to others. And never apologize for expressing yourself or pain authentically. They sound from what you said that they are not living authentically.

I guess to me forgiveness is also like getting off a soul-sucking, rage-filled carnival ride that makes me feel like throwing up. Being able to see circumstances for what they are and step out and away from crazy dynamics. What conclusions others' draw isn't my business. You will be able to recognize those who value you and it will raise the bar and what healthy treatment and support should look and feel like.

And know you are precious in God's eyes, always no matter what.

 

[DanM96$$]

Hi. If this is not helpful please disregard. Just a thought to throw out there.

I believe God loves you and always did, and no matter others' perceptions or advice this is important, you are important, and you do very much matter. Infinitely.

I believe justice is hard to define, as it doesn't undo damage. Forgiveness to me is not something easy to achieve by white knuckling. Do you want to forgive? Is now the time? There is no wrong answer. The more important part is what do you need to move forward? If you feel it is justice +/or validation, where can you receive it? (It doesn't sound like it is likely to come from perpetrators). Instead, who are others? Where and when do you feel peace, or joy? What dreams can you achieve if you can focus on other things?

God sees and knows everything, including the future. Such pain is His department as like you He suffered it too. Not that He caused your's but for better or worse we all will live with the consequences of our actions. Including the people who did what they did.

But I think being able to let go, trusts God will handle it. And tries to put a stop gap between more and more destruction and pain and lost lives.

I don't believe forgiveness has to equal reconciliation. It could mean holding the door open. Or biting your tongue vs getting pulled in. Not wishing harm but knowing at the end of the day we all have to account for our own lives, not any one else's.

I hope you will focus on being kind to yourself. And when you find yourself repeating their words, apologize to yourself. Some things are wrong and hurt people. Full stop. And try maybe 1st to forgive yourself. I know I need that anyway, where I feel I didn't have others' backs, or froze, or was unkind or rushed to judgement of others. When I have been forgiven it reminds me to try to give it to others. And never apologize for expressing yourself or pain authentically. They sound from what you said that they are not living authentically.

I guess to me forgiveness is also like getting off a soul-sucking, rage-filled carnival ride that makes me feel like throwing up. Being able to see circumstances for what they are and step out and away from crazy dynamics. What conclusions others' draw isn't my business. You will be able to recognize those who value you and it will raise the bar and what healthy treatment and support should look and feel like.

And know you are precious in God's eyes, always no matter what.

I mean… *sigh* I think you’re right. But… I don’t understand why I have to forgive myself if anything. I know I didn’t do the things to myself. And honestly… my family’s inauthentic living really makes me feel insulted because I have been saved by God multiple times in various ways. And… there’s a whole bunch of issues that come with forgiveness. Not something that isn’t outright impossible… I think… but here’s what it is.

As a baby my Mom had an issue with her gallbladder during pregnancy. And through prayer and divine intervention, the gallbladder was successfully removed and there was a strong chance I was going to be born with no limbs. But that thankfully didn’t happen. I mention this because… it honestly insults me as a follower of God to see the same family who did this out right abuse and neglect me as I grew up. Especially since I’ve grown to love God as… I believe He gave me strength to go through what I went through. It’s like the amount of betrayal messed with what forgiveness means for me.

So now I’m left stranded on what think about forgiveness. Seriously, like… slice it up 10,000 ways I couldn’t tell you what the right one is.

But I must ask again, what does this have to do with forgiving myself?

 

[Tinyflame]

Wow @DanM96$$ that is an amazing story of your start in life as a newborn. Which says more about how you're obviously supposed to be here.

You are absolutely right, you have nothing to forgive yourself for in terms of other's actions and choices. Nor do you have to forgive yourself for being angry or the feelings you have. Nor do you have to forgive yourself for distancing yourself or cutting off contact.

Eiy, it is such a personal question. By example, saying for myself, only to see if it resonates for you, I would say it's taken me decades to understand much can be semi or subconscious, or perhaps some denial about the reality of PTSD being like the 3rd person in a relationship (as it's been said), or the elephant in the room. Looking back I used to think I ghosted nice people, for example, because I was used to poorer treatment. And by ghosting I mean not harsh words, just kind of float away. but then I realized it was not-so-nice people also. I realize with the nice ones, there was often a point of great pain. But the pain had to deal with the core of past wounds. Me risking something different, going against everything about my comfort zone, overcoming obstacles (often mostly within myself, and triggers) and then having it crash. Now, no one is ever perfect, but my reaction resulted from throwing me back to 'then', not now. Usually I didn't say anything and left. With the rarest of person if I addressed it it was, or felt like, never in the nicest way or giving them room for imperfection. At those moments I never could recall all the reasons they deserved trust. Oddly however it always led to reconciliation, which though can only be a free choice for all. Lucky me.

However, the fall out from these things can be awful. Including an overflowing stress cup. It can hurt other's feelings. Weddings, funerals, important days can be missed or take Herculean efforts, because you understand after neglect it doesn't feel appropriate to have a presence (at least I feel that way). And the list can go on and on if we focus on it. Declining opportunities, being self-preoccupied, self-sabotage, fear over-riding choices, etc etc. Even berating self talk/ Inner Critic. Even trusting to some degree the wrong people and not trusting those who bent over backwards to earn and honor it,

Just for me personally, being frustrated of what I failed at, what I didn't see in my self-centeredness +/ or hypervigilance, times I hurt others, the very difficulties in living others do not realize do not reflect on them but they interpret as so, being affected by the past and not seeing at those moments any other reality, and the shame and fear +/or guilt, those I have to acknowledge. Let alone when I failed others or did wrongly or caused hurt or harm. But I have to remember that's not all I did. And feeling of zero value doesn't mean I always was.

There is a big reason they say we did the best we could with the tools we had at the time. What the past involved is not our fault but now we have to uncover and own our triggers, and reactions. Which can be really hard when we're the type (at least I am) of ~'BOOM-TRIGGER-RUN!!' (And often that's been literally).

For me I don't think I was even aware of how much this applies to me. I have very little compassion for myself. But I do feel compassion for ourselves and others brings more understanding, acceptance and much healing.

Far as other's beliefs go, that's their business. I can remember when all I had safe to me was what I believed or thought, everything else could be, was, or was open to be destroyed by certain others. But you have that too.

Best wishes to you. As they say it's like peeling an onion, each layer goes deeper (and can make you cry). Just go at it at your own pace and IMHO make distance from that which disturbs or confuses you, or hurts you. By that I don't mean in terms of processing your trauma, but reducing time with or avoiding people who deny it or want to blame you instead of owning what they've done and are doing.

When my mom got a negative cancer spread result for her liver, although it didn't matter squat as her time left was '10 years ago', I remember being so happy I felt like going over and hugging an enemy neighbour. I just couldn't have cared less about focusing on anything else. I try my best to remember that. I know I have a long way to go but I would rather remember that gratitude trumped pain or thoughts of the past, even if they were justified. Gratitude for her sake, as I loved her.