Privilege And Self-worth And Changes

[rightkindofme]

(sorry, I'm having to edit myself a lot because apparently Kid finds wealthy people extremely... troublesome.)

I think this links are pertinent because they help illustrate the extent to which it affects a person. I think this factors highly into your low self-value when surrounded by rich folks. It's not you, it's societies customs and expectations that have been drilled into your head for decades.

Sorry this was so triggering. I've seen those Cracked articles before. I feel like Cracked is strangely high quality journalism these days. :)

It's not me, it is the values that society has drilled into my head... but then I don't know what to replace it with. I feel... empty.

 

[shrinkingviolet]

What I have learned over the past several years is that my self worth is not dictated by another's opinion of me. I know to those who truly love me, my children and hubby, I am irreplaceable and priceless. Who I am is constantly changing and growing but at the core, I am kind, compassionate, strong, emotional, strong willed and stubborn to a fault. I am a tangled, confusing, complicated beautiful mess but that's okay. Accepting this and loving myself anyway, that's my journey towards feeling safe. No money, status or approval from anyone else is going to provide that for me.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

I don't understand the talk about "class" or "money" because I think what's important is not what you have but how you act.

edited to add: maybe I do understand it because I sometimes feel worthless because of "random things" (not money in my case) but it makes no sense.

 

[Eleanor]

What it sounds like from here is that there are a few overlapping things going on here.

it is the values that society has drilled into my head.

When you say this are you talking about moral values (truth, justice, benevolence) or are you talking about value judgments assigned to particular things (rich people are good, homosexuality is bad, Dior is better than von Fustenberg)? That distinction might help. It sounds to me like you are looking for some moral grounding, and a place to stand to see those value judgments for what they are (more or less arbitrary preferences treated as absolutes.) Moral values (on my understanding) are absolute, they apply to everyone all the time. So honesty, respect, responsibility, fairness, compassion, courage, prudence, these are all moral virtues, dispositions of character that we can practice. They have zip to do with money or clothes or anything.

Safe and scared are tied together. I piss people off. Sometimes... on purpose... sometimes I swear I didn't do it on purpose!!!! I am a loud, bombastic, opinionated person and a lot of people want to take me down a few pegs. I don't know how to feel secure enough to feel like, "Even if you want to take me down a few pegs you can't."

This seems like a couple of things to me. 1) Are you in control of when you piss people off and when you don't? So do you know ahead of time what will piss people off? And then make a decision about whether you want to or not? Or do you just do it and then regret it? Is this a strategy problem (I make people mad when it is not helpful)? Or is this an impulse control thing? Which are different issues.

2) That "a lot of people want to take me down a few pegs"... have the flavor of projection to me. Reality test time: How many is a lot? How often do you interact with these people? How do you KNOW that is what they want? What is your evidence? Have you asked them straight up?

3) Feeling safe in the presence of such people in reality is a different thing than feeling safe in one's imagination (although they are related) Is the safety physical? Social? Emotional? What kind of safety are you worried about. Different kinds need different approaches.

I have a lot of poor-people habits. I appear poor to the people around me.

This sounds like a self-care issue to me. Been there. I make myself buy clothes (Once a year! and I missed last year...) For me this is an issue of respecting myself and caring for myself. I try to dress myself as if I cared about myself. Would I let my friend dress like this all the time? My daughter? Or would I want them to have nicer things/wear nicer things. I wouldn't dress them in rags. Why would I dress myself in that way? I have to really really work to SEE the clothes I have, and decide what is good enough to keep, what I should give to someone else, and what is actually a rag. It does not help that rags are comfortable...:whistling:

When I deal with rich, influential, "powerful" (oh gag me with a spoon) people I tend to go home and feel like I should cut myself to ribbons because I am not good enough to be going there. Any second they are going to find out that I'm bad and stupid and a whore and they will start thinking that they should beat me too and....

This is obviously, I don't have to tell you, old scripts running. The emotional fall out sounds awful. Can you get explicit help processing the old stuff so it gets filed as a completed memory in your nervous system, instead of an ever present danger?

There is status with other people (how we imagine they see us) and there is status with ourselves - self worth and self image. It is hard for people who grew up neglected and abused to internalize a realistic representation of themselves. That doesn't mean it is impossible, it just means it takes practice.:bored:

That said there are real differences in the interpersonal cultures of different classes in the U.S. And there are moral implications to them. Looking for the link... but can't find it....

 

[rightkindofme]

@Eleanor .... your brain is a wonderful place. The way you have with words is fabulous. You... Oh man. Positive feelings. What awesome questions! I'd be happy to try to answer. Thank you so much for thinking of them.

Yes! Tons of overlapping things. Teasing them out is part of my difficulty. Oh how I appreciate you doing so much of it here.

Ok, truth, justice, honesty are "moral" values... that are not even vaguely applied evenly across the range of people. How much honesty is appropriate or appreciated varies dramatically by who you are talking to and what their preferences are. It is really tricky figuring out what is honesty and what is being too blunt and what is being mean because people are so different. I *do* think that these things are variable. This ties in with your later comments about wearing old/crummy clothes as being a lack of self-care. I have several friends who, like me, currently technically have a lot of wealth but we grew up very poor and we just don't buy new clothes much. We have frequent conversations about how we are tired of having people tell us to buy clothes to "prove" that we value ourselves.

Uhm, if my value is based on the clothing I wear then my value is pretty shoddy. If I wanted new clothes denying myself would be a self-care thing. But I wear my clothes because they fit and I have a weird body shape and shopping is an exercise in crying and self-hatred and it's awful. I would need to find a tailor and have every item of clothing hand made in order to have shopping be an even vaguely non-traumatic experience.

I don't see how enjoying what I have and sparing myself from awful is lack of self-care. It seems like self-care. When I really have to get something new I do. I just don't think I genuinely "have" to very often.

I do replace my underwear when I get a hole. But I will wear pants with holes for years and years because ... I don't care. I mostly wear them to garden anyway. Why does it matter?

So telling someone that their clothes look crappy is honest... but it is necessary or useful or appropriate? Maybe they like their crappy clothes. Maybe they can't afford anything better. Why comment? But so many people say that in order to be honest they must!

It is very complicated to me.

Moving on to the pissing people off thing. Sometimes I know in advance that I will piss people off and I choose to do it on purpose. In those situations I don't feel bad and it isn't an impulse problem. I am genuinely ok with conflict and I do call out racist/sexist/ableist stuff in my little world and it pisses people off and I'm fine with that. I try to do it in a not-lighting-a-fire-way because I do genuinely want to change their minds.... but they often start out pissed. I can live with that.

Sometimes man I don't mean to do it. I have had a weird life and I'm not ashamed of it and I talk about it and a lot of people wish I really wouldn't. I'm not going to be silent so that your world view can be the only one present, sorry.

The "take down a few pegs" is a tape from childhood. I was told that phrase by various people every few months... basically until I hit 25. So it was a few consistent people who had that attitude with the occasional other random person thrown in so that I would be really paranoid and think it was everyone. I haven't had someone tell me that specific phrase in a few years so yes, at this point it is projecting. But the dynamic hasn't changed (from what I can tell) just people saying that exact phrase. Which feels like a thing. I'm older now and harder to challenge.

Safety!

Part of my problem with physical safety is because I had a triggering incident recently. I rough house with kids (I work with children) and a kid kicked me in the throat. I don't think of it as an assault, but I'm still not physically done with being freaked out. To some degree that will recede over the next few months. (I've rough housed with hundreds of kids... accidents like this are rare.)

And the adults in the group responded to this by saying that I should promise not to be a problem any more and I should keep my distance from the family of the kid who kicked me. So I'm having a lot of exploding feelings about safety and perceived emotional safety and value and.... right now my head is very upset about what is going on in one part of my life.

Th

 

[Eleanor]

I don't have time to respond fully right now... but very quickly:

It is easy to be honest - just make sure whatever comes out of your mouth is truthful. The tricky bit is in figuring out which truth to tell - that is where the compassion and respect and responsibility (and sometimes courage) come it. People will take "virtue" as an excuse to be mean, it doesn't make them right in doing so. Mean is mean, honest or not.

If all you are worried about about the clothes is what other people think (and they are rude enough to say anything) then worry no more. I like my soft old jeans with the holes in them too... so no, don't dress to please others. It is not that your value is determined by your clothes - the other way around rather. I have a horse I love, I don't dress her in rags. I get her blanket cleaned, I keep her tack tidy etc. Why? because it is a sign I care about her. If your clothes are comfortable, neat and clean, I don't see why anyone else's opinion matters. And if you need custom clothes and can afford them, go for it when the need arises.

 

[rightkindofme]

It isn't that I worry about what they say... exactly... I wish they would stop giving me clothes. Then they follow up with asking why I'm not wearing the clothes they gave me. Uhm, because it didn't fit right and my clothes do fit. Yes yours didn't have a hole in the knee... but I don't care about the hole. I care about how my hips feel.

It's weird control stuff.

 

[shimmerz]

Then they follow up with asking why I'm not wearing the clothes they gave me.

This is just rude.

 

[Eleanor]

When people give you clothes: "Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness, these are lovely clothes. I want you to know tho, that I am very hard to fit and I value comfort more than appearance, so I like my clothes just fine. May I pass these along to the goodwill (or whatever) so they will go to someone who truly needs them?" Gratitude plus truth. If they take offense... too bad for them.

(coming back later on the safety thing...)

 

[shimmerz]

Yeah, agree with Eleanor. Sounds like you need to shut these people down.

 

[rightkindofme]

I'm going to defend my neighbors just a tad while agreeing I need to find a different way of dealing with them. :)

My neighborhood is about 1/3 old, retired white people. The rest of the population is wonderfully diverse. My city is one of the most diverse cities in the country. The folks who have been here for 30+ years are having a hard time adjusting to the changes in demographics. I have done a lot of work to bridge between folks. I have gotten neighbors talking to one another when they've lived two houses away from each other for decades without saying "Hi". I'm a chatty-Cathy. It's a thing.

Most of my elderly retired neighbors are on a fixed income in an area that is rapidly becoming psychotically expensive. Most of my neighbors have had their children move out of this area because it is too expensive. So none of them have much money.

I'm "out" about my crazy. When I'm having a particularly bad spree of suicidal ideation I will talk to people about it. They worry about me. They know I don't have a family and they want ... they want to take care of me.

I'm hard to take care of. It is hard to find ways to take care of me that don't result in me turning around and all but biting someone.

The ones who pester me about wearing the clothes they buy (from Wal*Mart) are ones I talk to a lot who are very lonely. They want to feel connected. They want to still feel like they are able to take care of people who "need" to be taken care of (in their view). I try hard to be compassionate with them about it because I appreciate having people care enough to try.

But I need better scripts. Right now I go with, "It is very sweet of you to think of me in this way. Know how I've talked about my joint pain? Clothes that fit wrong... well they are a real problem. I end up not buying 95% of what I try on because I am just shaped funny."

They don't take it seriously though. Sigh.

There is a part of me that feels like learning to manage them graciously is training for how I will want my kids to treat me when I'm an old busy-body. Ha.

 

[Changing4Best]

I'm poor. I don't accept TVs either, I cannot afford cable and reception around these parts by antenna is nonexistent. I'm more of a radio person, so I have a computer laptop and stream my radio that way from a station 75 miles from here. I buy cloths are discount stores and thrift stores. I don't buy red meat, can't afford most of it. I do buy chicken sometimes though. I'm not starved though, I do have a bit of extra weight on me which I am trying to shed. None the less, I do have savings and a bit of cash stashed away for emergencies. I try to think ahead.

I don't see anything wrong with your wearing old cloths, if that makes you happy, so be it. Personally, I have problems with some rich folks I know around here. They talk down to me. It is strange as I have a college education and I once was rich. I owned a motel. Unfortunately, in the time after the World Trade Center Tragedy, folks were not travelling by plane and so I could not afford to pay the bills and lost the motel. Tough times for me for awhile until I got back on my feet. I was even homeless for a time as we lived at the motel.

I like my life they way it is now. I am happy serving God and singing in our church's choir. I pray a lot for myself and others. I love to read. I buy books at thrift stores and borrow books too. I'm happy now. That is all that really matters.