Shall i say this?

[Sandstone]

I did as I planned, and read what I'd written in this thread, plus a huge chunk of my journals that record what happened when I was last brought face to face with this issue. There wasn't time to discuss it, beyond her saying I'd given her lots to think about, and that I had communicated in the last session and even more this time. I'm pretty sure I went about it the right way for me. I don't think I could have put into words all the things I read, and I think in conversation we would have gone off down one track when there were lots more to cover.

I have some fear that it will all have sounded like a lot of self-indulgent whinging, but I always have that, so I can live with it. If she should respond that way, then she really isn't the T I believe her to be.

Mine certainly “takes care of me” between sessions- with a text or email check in if I’ve had a rough session, etc.

That isn't something I've ever encountered, or expected, from a T. No contact out of sessions seems to be the norm here, and I think anything else risks creating dependency. We discussed that quite a bit, partly because of a misunderstanding, where I expected her to focus on stabilisation, meaning teaching me skills, but she thought I was asking her to take responsibility for me in the other 167 hours. But, the key problem here is that I don't ever appear to have rough sessions. My last T wrote "S described and I observed that she would tend to appear calm and composed when discussing difficult feelings. This meant that it was easy for the observer (myself / system) to miss the extent of S' distress", and another, on the only occasion I ever cried in front of a T, said that in a 40 year career she had never seen anyone re-compose themselves so quickly. That blows a bit of a hole in current T's approach of ensuring safety by managing carefully what we talk about in session.

I suppose it puts the ball squarely back in my court to manage my own distress levels, but learning how to recognise them at the time is often beyond me. Deferring any feelings is my natural approach.

If she is any good, telling her you need her to back off should be enough.

Not if we are locked in what seems like an argument based on logic. It's a shame I had to be the one to see that it was about fear; I'd have preferred her to be the one to notice that. However it is probably good in the end as it has pushed me to be more open, more quickly.

 

[Suzetig]

If it seems to be about logic (or you're both making a logical argument rather than a feelings based one) and you don't show any sign of emotion I wonder how she would know it was about fear for you? I don't say that to be blaming but my T knows when something is hard for me by my body language - not necessarily tears etc but because of how I move or hold myself. How does your T know you're finding something hard going?

It may be that you need to find something that tells her you're finding it hard emotionally - it might feel artificial at first but if she knows that when you play with your water bottle, or put your hands on your lap or whatever that she's hitting a sore spot she can take some responsibility for slowing things down. If you don't give any sign of distress it's going to be hard for her to work in tandem with you.

Regardless though, if you as the client say you need her to back off, she should ease up. Talk about why you need her to ease up by all means but she should stop pressing that button when asked to.

 

[Sandstone]

How does your T know you're finding something hard going?

I'd expect her to remember that I've told her facing this in the past was dangerous for me. Perhaps the very objective way I said that meant she didn't realise the truth of it. But more broadly, I don't know how she would know. I have already discussed with her that when I have said to other Ts "I find this distressing" they have tended not to realise that I mean it, because I don't feel or show much emotion. (Sometimes it seems a bit sexist - would they expect a man to emote all the place?)

I think this may be something I have to go through with each new T. They all tend to think they are skilled enough to pick up on my distress. The really good ones learn and acknowledge that it is unusually well hidden. The bad ones get cross with me. This one has recognised and expressed her discomfort, now I'm waiting to see how she manages it. I want to work co-operatively to get round the problem, but I need to know she won't blame me for having it.

If you don't give any sign of distress it's going to be hard for her to work in tandem with you.

Yes, it is going to be hard. I told her about this when we interviewed each other. I've told her since when she asked how I felt "I can't afford the luxury of having feelings about that. I have to walk out of here in 12 minutes and manage a city and a bus journey." It isn't a surprise that I'm like this.

 

[The Albatross]

Expecting her to remember is kinda a cop out. The nuts and bolts are... in any environment... we can expect whatever we wish but we are bound to be disappointed at various times, with various people intermittently or consistently. The cue therefore is to handle it and have the conversation and act... rather than form unrealistic expectations in the first place.

 

[Sandstone]

yes @The Albatross , that is what this whole thread has been about - the best way to communicate what I know about myself, without making her feel attacked or risking exposing myself to a level that is unsafe. I hope I've done a reasonable job of it.

I am frustrated that I went into this therapy already knowing that these two issues are central, said so more than once, but she somehow skipped over that. There is obviously an issue in the way I communicate that devalues what I say. I hope T and I can work with it to reach better understanding. I think what I have already said will be helpful, and that the conversation we have next week will build on it. I can quantify it, before yesterday I thought there was 40% chance she would prefer not to continue seeing me, now I think that is an 8% chance.

 

[The Albatross]

It is a life skill to deal with things on a one for one as they crop up (normies have spontaneous resilience... but for us resilience and the ability to address things on a one for one is a management tool to acquire)... without shifting the issue away from ourselves and our opportunity to act or voice stuff and expect people to remember. The world doesn't work that way, people have their own mindsets, situations day to day... and it is better to see it as an opportunity to exercise stepping up and dealing with things as they crop up than it is to sit and simmer over the expectations you have for another person. Professional or not.

 

[Suzetig]

Someone saying "I find this distressing" can mean anything from I feel a bit upset and maybe tearful to I can't tolerate how I feel, want to hurt myself and can't function. I think in the absence of any nonverbal cues it would be hard for any T to know what end of the scale you're at. I know you've said elsewhere that you don't tend to feel things "in the moment" so I'm guessing it's hard even for you to know where you sit on that scale but I also hear you saying you can't afford to feel when you have things you need to do.

I wonder if really working on emotions, what distress physically feels like to you, what happy, angry etc physically feels like to you might help you learn to tolerate feelings and moderate them so you can express and manage emotions better? I hear how stuck you are with it.

 

[Sandstone]

Part of the problem is that I don't know it isn't showing. I can hear the difference in how I speak and feel the internal ending of the world, the incipient threat, so it is incomprehensible that others can't. I feel as though I am revealing my weakness to the whole world for them to leap on. It was a genuine surprise to me when the very experienced T told me this about myself, saying "You sit on my sofa, looking wholly self-possessed. I have to pick up the tiniest details to know that there is anything at all going on in there"

So when I say this is distressing, I mean it is the end of the world, and I'm exposing every vulnerable part of me in a desperate effort to grab hold of something before I vanish forever into the pit. Anything less than that doesn't much register, and I certainly wouldn't mention it. I have to be somewhere safe before I can get access to it.

But in this situation, I've taken the risk and read her things that do record emotions, that I could access in the safety of my home. I hope I've shown her enough to grasp what is going on. The risk is that she will only see the implied criticism that she didn't see it sooner. I think she is better than that.

 

[scout86]

No contact out of sessions seems to be the norm here, and I think anything else risks creating dependency.

I've noticed the policies on this really do vary, a lot. You know, there are a range of ways people interact, when it comes to "dependency". The way my T expresses it, some people tend to be to be "dependent". Some people are "independent", and some people he says are "anti-dependent". (That would include me.) You handle them differently. You encourage independence with the "dependent". He seems to think you encourage the "anti-dependent" to consider the possibility that there are times it's ok to depend on others and some people who are actually dependable. (I'd bet he'd think you were sort of "anti-dependent". We're the ones who worry about being dependent.)

I can hear the difference in how I speak and feel the internal ending of the world, the incipient threat, so it is incomprehensible that others can't.

I know the feeling! And, I've been surprised to find that my T can't actually read my thoughts, much less can the people who don't care read them. This is kind of complicated. I know there was a time when either not having feelings, or not showing them was a good adaptation. It was something I got very good at, very young. It's kind of hard to learn a better path that's still actually somewhat safe. To me, how you approach all this makes total sense and it's hard to imagine an experienced T would be surprised. Maybe surprised at how well you mask things, but surely not surprised that you do it. (Although, when I think about it, there was kind of a learning process with my T...) It sounds like you're making progress with this though. Good luck!

 

[Suzetig]

"You sit on my sofa, looking wholly self-possessed. I have to pick up the tiniest details to know that there is anything at all going on in there"

I get this, I had the same problem - I felt I was exposing myself hugely and felt vulnerable and distressed but looked and sounded like I was talking about my shopping list. Linking my internal state with external expression has been a really long, slow process because I felt like I would shatter most of the time. Things that helped me were really about pushing myself to hear how others saw me, the allow myself to cry or get angry and to express that.

Even now most people wouldn't know I was upset - I keep a very tight lid on things.

Something that has helped me a lot is my T telling me when she sees something that suggests I'm not ok. So she'll reflect a micro-expression, hand gesture, fidgeting with a comment like "that doesn't sit well with you", "you look uncomfortable with that" or at this stage in our relationship she'll just raise an eyebrow or leave space for me to say what it is I'm feeling.

I felt like I was on the verge of a breakdown for at least the first two years of therapy - it's much better now but still hard work.